#49874 How many homosexuals are there at BYU?

[vorpal blade]

How many homosexuals attend BYU is an interesting question. The Black Sheep gave some important and interesting comments about why there are gay people on campus. My question is, how do you determine who is a homosexual or gay, and who isn't? Without a working definition the percentages are not very meaningful. I suppose the problem is that it is clear in the mind of The Black Sheep who is and who isn't gay, but it isn't clear to me.

Since we are talking about BYU students who follow the honor code then we are talking about people who have feelings of attraction toward members of the same sex, but avoid “all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.” So, if once in a guy's life a thought comes into his head, “I wonder what it would be like to have some form of physical intimacy with a person of the same sex,” then is that person “gay?” Does it make him or her “gay” if the thought arises in their minds, “That might be kind of exciting to do.” With that kind of definition I'd think at least 50% of the BYU population is gay.

If you don't use behavior as a definitional criterion for whether a person is “gay” or not you run into all kinds of problems. If a person dreams about kissing the president, does that make him or her a “president kisser?” Our feelings and thoughts lead to behavior, and our behavior determines our character, but there is a difference. I feel sorry for the youth today who are tempted with some minor same-sex attraction and then has to debate with himself, “Am I gay or not?” The more he thinks about it, the more his thoughts fuel more thoughts. It seems to me a person could become what he thinks about. How frequent is the occurrence if you have one temptation, but you thought about it and analyzed it fifty times?

I'm sure there are some who consider themselves homosexuals who cannot remember a time when they didn't feel that way. Which is strange, because most of us go through early childhood without sexual attraction to either sex. At any rate these people closely identify themselves with homosexuality. But is it really innate in them – are they really born that way? You may think you have an answer, but consider how restricting the answer may be. If you think same-sex attraction is something you were born with and cannot escape then you are going to have a different sort of life than if you think it is due to some external environmental influence.

I really object to the statement “Some knew they were gay before they got here and others didn't.” It sounds like an unchangeable thing. It sounds like something you discover about your true self, rather than a thought or feeling you get. I think it would be better to say, “Some experienced a same-sex attraction before they got here and others didn't.” Why close the door on the possibility that it might not be who you really are, after all? Why classify people permanently on the basis of their feelings and attractions?  If you defined “gay” as someone who had same-sex attraction firmly imprinted on his spirit before he came to earth, I'd think that there would be no gays. We can debate this, but why not use a more ambiguous language when we don't know all the facts?

[TheBlackSheep]

The working definition I work under and the one that all the people I asked use (as far as I know) is that a gay person is one who experiences attraction to people of their own gender and who would call him- or herself gay. Those are the people who I gave the estimated statistics about. Most of those people (according to my estimation) follow the honor code in full, but some do not. In any case, those are the people who we guessed about enough to make guesstimates.

[TheBlackSheep]

Also, for what it is worth, I don't think that same-sex attraction is something that can be changed in all or even most cases, at least not completely. People know who they are attracted to. I choose to use the language that people who go through this use, because they know better than I do, and I think it's less offensive to them if I do.

[NerdGirl]

Also, for what it is worth, I don't think that same-sex attraction is something that can be changed in all or even most cases, at least not completely. People know who they are attracted to. I choose to use the language that people who go through this use, because they know better than I do, and I think it's less offensive to them if I do.

I agree. I have quite a few gay friends, and I don't think any of them chose to be attracted to the same sex any more than I chose to be attracted to the opposite sex (and at least a few of them would not have chosen same-sex attraction if they had had the choice after what they've had to go through). I don't know if people are "born that way" or "made that way" in early childhood. I would guess that it's a mixture of both and that it's different for different people. I'm sure there exists at least one gay person in the world who chose to act on a very minor same-sex attraction because they wanted to be rebellious or they though it would be cool or something along those lines, but I think people like that are a tiny minority.

I also noticed that the gay people I knew at BYU were some of the most scrupulous about keeping the Honor Code because they wanted to avoid even the tiniest appearance of evil.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Also, for what it is worth, I don't think that same-sex attraction is something that can be changed in all or even most cases, at least not completely.

Is it really that absolute, that there is nothing at all to help them be attracted to the opposite gender?
So what do they do then? On a doctrine thing they can be faithful members so long as they abstain from sexual activities, but it is kind of a damper when you know that you won't be fully exalted, ie sealed to a spouse, and can't progress beyond that.

From what I have learned and been told, the habits, the desires, our personality carries on with us after death, so that means they'll still be dealing with their attraction even after death. There has to be something to help them, because I don't think death will just make them attracted to the opposite gender automatically, but neither do I think that it is so absolute that there is no change at all for them.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that it is that absolute.

[Katya]

Also, for what it is worth, I don't think that same-sex attraction is something that can be changed in all or even most cases, at least not completely.

Is it really that absolute, that there is nothing at all to help them be attracted to the opposite gender?
So what do they do then? On a doctrine thing they can be faithful members so long as they abstain from sexual activities, but it is kind of a damper when you know that you won't be fully exalted, ie sealed to a spouse, and can't progress beyond that.

From what I have learned and been told, the habits, the desires, our personality carries on with us after death, so that means they'll still be dealing with their attraction even after death.

I don't see that that follows. If, in an eternal sense, same-sex attraction truly is a mortal aberration, I don't see why it wouldn't be cured upon death any more than any other congenital condition. So, I agree with you that same-sex attraction can't possibly be some sort of curse that automatically limits the eternal progression of the members who have it, but I also agree with TheBlackSheep's observation that there may be nothing to "cure" it in this life.

[NerdGirl]

I've always thought that same-sex attraction is something people would stop experiencing when they died, and that a faithful church member who didn't get married because he/she was attracted to the same sex would have the opportunity to marry in the next life just like any other faithful church member would who didn't have the opportunity to marry in this life.

[TheBlackSheep]

Hear, hear!

[vorpal blade]

In my experience the idea that there might be a "cure" for same-sex attraction is often offensive to those who have these feelings. Many struggle with deciding what they want. Some find it comforting to believe that there is nothing that can be done about it. And, I believe, it is not easy, or perhaps possible, for all who would like to change their orientation to do so in their lifetimes.

Here is an interesting Christian, but not LDS site that has a lot of very touching stories from former homosexuals. You might find it interesting.

http://www.stonewallrevisited.com/

This is what they say about themselves:

"About Stonewall Revisited. Our goal is to offer social, ethical and spiritual alternatives to people. Educating people about alternatives provides them with a wider range of options for the critical life decisions they must make. We believe that offering choices is one way of treating people with the dignity they deserve as human beings.
"Homosexuality is a sensitive subject about which many people have an emotional opinion. Our goal, however, is not to give opinions but to offer alternatives. We offer the personal stories of people who have found a more fulfilling life outside of homosexuality.
"Homosexuality is not inescapable. A homosexual identity, no matter how acquired, is not the only choice for anyone. If a person so chooses, he or she can set aside a homosexual identity with God's help, strength and love. Since some people want to set aside their homosexual identities, our goal is to assist them."

In a FAQ section they say,

"Q. Are there such persons as "ex-gays?"
A. Yes! Thousands of people have chosen to move out of a homosexual lifestyle through the power of Jesus Christ. Many others have overcome a homosexual "orientation" through therapy. According to psychiatrists who treat the disorder, approximately 30% of homosexuals who submit to extended psychotherapy will revert to heterosexuality, no matter why they entered therapy in the first place."

[Unit of Energy]

I think that it is more about the direction you are heading when you die than where you are when you die. None of us are going to be perfect when we die, we just need to be heading in the right direction. If a person is struggling with same sex attraction I think it depend on if they are actually struggling or if they are embracing it when they leave this life to determine where they are heading after this life.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

I think that it is more about the direction you are heading when you die than where you are when you die. None of us are going to be perfect when we die, we just need to be heading in the right direction. If a person is struggling with same sex attraction I think it depend on if they are actually struggling or if they are embracing it when they leave this life to determine where they are heading after this life.

Well yeah, that's true.

[luxurious]

I registered specifically to agree with TheBlackSheep's points (which are always quite lucid and well-thought out). I think that she's handled this hot-button issue with grace and far more level-headedness than most people would.

[TheBlackSheep]

Hey luxurious, thanks. Seriously.

I was going to link up to some Ensign articles, but my roommate just pointed out this quote from lds.org/newsroom, and I thought I'd share it instead.

ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.

And hey people, can we end the speculation? We have a Heavenly Father who knows everything and who will work this out with the individuals to whom this situation applies. Let's just take a rest.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Thanks BlackSheep for quoting that, I hadn't heard that before.

[vorpal blade]

Very good quote, Black Sheep. I fully agree with it. Here are some other quotes from the same article that say what I was trying to say about the objection to using the terminology prevalent in today's society:

ELDER OAKS: You’re my son. You will always be my son, and I’ll always be there to help you.

The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.

The New Testament affirms that God has given us commandments that are difficult to keep. It is in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, verse 13: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

I think it’s important for you to understand that homosexuality, which you’ve spoken of, is not a noun that describes a condition. It’s an adjective that describes feelings or behavior. I encourage you, as you struggle with these challenges, not to think of yourself as a ‘something’ or ‘another,’ except that you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you’re my son, and that you’re struggling with challenges.

The same could be said of the word "gay," or "gay people," as was said about "homosexuality."

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: What would you say to those members in society, members of the Church, who may look at same-gender attraction as different than other temptations, than any other struggle that people face? First of all, do you think it’s a fair assessment that some people have that feeling? What would you say to them?

ELDER OAKS: I think it is an accurate statement to say that some people consider feelings of same-gender attraction to be the defining fact of their existence. There are also people who consider the defining fact of their existence that they are from Texas or that they were in the United States Marines. Or they are red-headed, or they are the best basketball player that ever played for such-and-such a high school. People can adopt a characteristic as the defining example of their existence and often those characteristics are physical.

We have the agency to choose which characteristics will define us; those choices are not thrust upon us.

The ultimate defining fact for all of us is that we are children of Heavenly Parents, born on this earth for a purpose, and born with a divine destiny. Whenever any of those other notions, whatever they may be, gets in the way of that ultimate defining fact, then it is destructive and it leads us down the wrong path.

In an Ensign article Elder Oaks said

“We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns to identify particular conditions or specific persons. Our religious doctrine dictates this usage. It is wrong to use these words to denote a condition, because this implies that a person is consigned by birth to a circumstance in which he or she has no choice in respect to the critically important matter of sexual behavior.”

(Ensign, 1995, October, Same-Gender Attraction)

[vorpal blade]

I've found that you shouldn't label peopel. They do tend to live up to your expectation of them. I know that with children you shouldn't say, "You are unkind!" It is better to say, "That was an unkind thing you did." It lets the child know the behavior was bad, but the child isn't necessarily a bad person.

[Tao]

It is my feeling that if satan has troubles shaking your faith, he will endeavor to destroy your hope. In the long run the same result is achieved. In the ears of those struggling with same gender attraction, self-image problems, or even prolonged singlehood, he poisons hope with thoughts of eternities spent alone or unhappy. Hope is powerful and therefore zealously fought over by those who know its application. Its true root is found in the immortal agency of man, and by that agency is fulfilled or destroyed. I cannot currently agree that same sex attraction is a situation that is changeless, it smacks too much of fatalism and determinism for my current philosophy to accept. To quote a man who I have come to respect deeply speaking of a entirely different subject:

Having said this, I DO believe in inertia. Or as a friend of mine once said, "People are prone to do more of what they do"
You can dig yourself into a lifestyle so deeply that you become functionally blind to doing things any other way. More importantly, you can wire your brain to react a certain way so that you are incapable of functioning in any other manner. Is it possible to change? Yes. But not without MASSIVE – and did I mention big? – willful and internal reconditioning. And this is NO small feat. Putting it in perspective, you literally have to kill yourself and become a totally different person. The 'old you' dies and is replaced by someone new. How deep does this go? Well to quote an old AA saying: "Quitting drinking is easy. All you have to do is change everything about your life." And the raw truth is that most people are not willing to do that. Often the course is set and the person lives and dies with the repercussions of not just one choice, but millions that create and direct that course. Most people, no matter their social class, are not willing to embark on this magnitude of change I'm talking about.

In no way do I promote isolationism, it breeds fear and misunderstanding that boarders fanaticism. But I do worry about the trend of continual exposure that brings people to rationalize an immoral action due to the many times they have seen it from good people. All men sin. To a greater extent, all men are tempted. Christ Himself was not exempt. Yet to rationalize a temptation as an inborn genetic trait has deterministic implications perhaps not often considered. Homosexuality is not an uncommon thing, and it is comforting to have something to point at that would explain it. Yet using the same line of reasoning with a less socially excepted break from the norm would be shocking to no end. Sadly enough, pedophilia is also not unheard of, are we to feel sorry for those that have been born with desires so different from ours and be glad that after they are dead they won't have to struggle with them anymore? How about lusts that are not sexual in nature; a predilection towards extreme violence is truly rare in the human race, but I would be hesitant to say that it is something that cannot be changed. Nor would I say the same of homosexuality.

The difference in my eyes is that someone who chooses not to struggle with same sex attraction can do so in a manner that does not interrupt the status quo of today's society, if practiced with the same restraint society asks of heterosexual individuals, it does no noticeable damage to anyone outside of the closed relationship. This does (or, in my eyes, should) make a significant distinction in the role of society when working with those choosing to no longer struggle with these temptations, but it does not alter the fact that choice, agency, and hope, are with each individual throughout their lives.

[Laser Jock]

...they can be faithful members so long as they abstain from sexual activities, but it is kind of a damper when you know that you won't be...sealed to a spouse

This isn't necessarily the case. One of my friends struggles with same-sex attraction and at the same time is in a happy temple marriage. I don't mean to imply that all, or even many, of those who deal with SSA can/should marry someone of the opposite sex. However, some do, and do so successfully, even with their temptations while here on earth. (And as has already been covered, those who do not but are faithful will have it made up to them after this life.)

[vorpal blade]

You have many good points that I agree with, Tao and Laser Jock.

While I believe there is hope for all of us, and I believe God loves us all, I'm not so sure that it is possible for all those who struggle with same-sex attraction to completely overcome it in their lifetimes. I could be wrong. It partly depends on what you mean by "overcome" it. They say that an alcoholic never completely overcomes his addiction. I don't know about that. You can certainly abstain from alcohol for the rest of your life, and as long as you don't take another drink you don't have a problem with it. You can lose your desire for it, I believe, but you are never completely safe to drink in moderation. Or so I've heard.

I think the important thing is that we have the power to resist temptation - as long as we stay away from temptation, and we haven't already chosen to go over the line so far that we can't make it back on our own.

[bismark]

is there a difference between having the genetic makeup that makes a person be attracted to the same sex as there is to having the genetic makeup that makes a person white or black or brown or yellow or...?

edit: ok, yes, obviously there is a _difference_ but i mean in philosophical terms.. hmm, perhaps i don't know how to phrase my question so i will be back later with a better one.