Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I asked the question primarily to see if the author's who espouse feminism agree with it on the "touchable" level or on the philosophical level. I also wanted clarification on whether or not most of the writers would identify abortion as a difference between their idea of feminism and mainstream feminism.

Which brings me to this: does anyone, beside me, identify abortion rights as a key component of feminism? I think that if you surveyed a sample of Americans, you would find that an overwhelming majority associate "feminism" with "abortion rights." So while I wholeheartedly agree with and support Sauron's definition of feminism - and would consider myself a feminist on those grounds - I would never identify myself as a feminist because it carries with it images of a pro-choice individual. In my view, it would be like someone self-identifying as atheist, while she still attends Catholic mass weekly, reads the Bible, and prays to God every night.

As a venting point - and being a bit judgmental admittedly - I think some people at BYU identify themselves as feminist simply for the shock factor. (I should note that I don't get that sense at all from Sauron or any of the board writers for that matter.) They think, "I agree women should get paid equally and have equal opportunities. People in the Church don't like feminists. I'm different! I'm a FEMINIST!" That grates on me, but that's more of a personal problem I guess. (It also bugs me when some people identify as liberals simply for the shock value. Yes there are liberals at BYU, but many of the "liberals" running around BYU couldn't define progressive thought outside of, "I think welfare is okay.") </end judgmental rant>

I think it is part of it, but realize that feminism is one of the most fractured movements there is (as Sauron adequately pointed out). It is entirely possible to feel that there needs to be some governmental control of who can have an abortion, and under what circumstances, and still believe that there is a pay disparity, for example. Feminism is a much more broad ideology than Atheism. I disagree with your comparison, and I would offer a replacement.

A feminist who isn't strictly pro-choice is like a Marxist who believes in entrepeneurialism.

i think that female bodily autonomy is an important aspect of feminism, and for many that includes the right to choose their birth control methods, the circumstances under which they give birth, and whether or not to have an abortion. so as a feminist i, personally, think it's important to protect a woman's right to choose what is right for her and her family. but birthing rights and maternal rights speak to me as a person. as a feminist, it concerns me that our country has such a high rate of c-sections and infant and maternal deaths compared to other western nations. it concerns me that a doctor or politician can decide if i'm allowed to give birth at home with a midwife or if doing that can be considered a criminal offense. but not feminists feel as i do. some are more concerned with pay equity or how women are portrayed in the media, or pornography.

i liked sauron's answer because he's right. feminism has to encompass ALL women, which inevitably means it will be fractured and have disparities. certain aspects ignore women of color and their unique experiences. some ignore lesbians or trans women.

i'm proud to be a feminist who controls her birth control methods, who plans to marry and have children and work, and who supports equal pay, equal representation in politics, and a woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not. but i've been blessed with a family who supports me and my choices. not all women are as lucky, which is why we still need feminism.

I believe that pay disparity exists for the following reasons:

1) Men are, generally, more aggressive about asking for / pursuing raises than women are. The squeaky wheel gets the grease
2) Women are more likely to move when their husbands careers require it, putting their own careers at a slight disadvantage. The longer you stay with a company, the more you will make. So moving frequently (or even occasionally) and having to start at a new place of work will put you behind salary-wise, even if you have similar qualifications/experience as others at the same company.
3) Women are more likely to take time off for child rearing. These interruptions in a career chronology make it harder for them to stay current in their chosen field, and thereby requiring a lot of catch up each time they leave and return (either from maternity leave or a more prolonged absence).

There are of course exceptions to each of these, and they don't necessarily excuse the situation. But I'm so sick of people on TV talking about pay disparity like it's a result of sexist fat cat bosses who think women's work is somehow inferior to men's.

I associate feminism more with general reproductive choice (including access to birth control and women choosing for themselves when or if they get married and to whom) than with abortion specifically. There are also plenty of other issues that I think of when I think of feminist issues before I think of reproductive choice, like the right to vote, run for office, and own property, access to education, and employment equality. So when someone identifies themself as a feminist, I don't immediately think they must be pro-choice. I would consider myself a feminist, but I only think abortion is okay in certain circumstances (although I think it should remain legal because that's not my decision to make for other people). I sometimes don't like to say "I'm a feminist" or "I'm a liberal" or whatever (even though I am those things), because people sometimes assume that means something different than what I think it means. But it's generally obvious to people who know me from what I do with my life and the causes I support that I'm in favor of equal opportunities for men and women and promoting and defending women's rights.

I don't know how I feel about the idea that "feminism" has to encompass all women. I think I like that idea, but I don't think feminism is perceived that way by society as a whole. I guess that is really what my post is about - the label "feminism" and how society perceives it. There's what you want things to mean and what things actually mean to people.

Marduk wrote:I think it is part of it, but realize that feminism is one of the most fractured movements there is (as Sauron adequately pointed out). It is entirely possible to feel that there needs to be some governmental control of who can have an abortion, and under what circumstances, and still believe that there is a pay disparity, for example. Feminism is a much more broad ideology than Atheism. I disagree with your comparison, and I would offer a replacement.

A feminist who isn't strictly pro-choice is like a Marxist who believes in entrepeneurialism.

Thanks - I kept trying to come up with a better comparison, but none I could come up with fit too well. That one is much better.

I agree with what you're saying about the points not being contradictory. As I mentioned before, I really am focusing on what the label "feminist" carries with it for the most part. My position is that the vast majority of the time, "feminist" connotes "pro-abortion rights" and that those who identify themselves as feminists should expect others to believe they are for abortion rights. (Abortion rights in the traditional sense of a woman having the legal option to terminate an abortion without cause in the first trimester [EDIT: I originally said "semester" instead of trimester; what has college done to me?!] and on a sliding scale after that.) Hence, while I agree with Sauron on every point, I would refrain from labeling myself feminist and I think him labeling himself a feminist is a bit off.

Of course, I run a dangerous course with this because if you asked most people what "Mormon" meant, you would get a wide range of crazy answers as to what Mormons believe. Even with these misnomers, I would identify myself as Mormon. How is that different from feminism which could really be one thing (a fractured movement that has no clear cut ideology other than the empowerment of women) even though it is widely perceived to mean another thing (an ideology that espouses equal rights for women, reproductive control for women, including broad access to abortions without government intervention)?

I think the difference between the two is that the label "Mormon" is a label that has an institution behind which can verify whether or not that label is used accurately. In a sense, there is a "right" answer to what Mormon means or entails. Check the cannon and policy of the Church to determine whether or not that belief conforms to the label. Feminism has no such sponsoring institution to clarify its beliefs, so the best measure of what "feminism" is, is the popular perception of "feminism." Both within "Mormon" and "feminism" there is wiggle room so that Mormons can have different views on theology and feminists can have different views on women's rights. Within each of those, though, there are core beliefs which, if a person does not believe them, would remove that label from the individual. For Mormon, a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet would be essential so that if someone believed he was not at all divinely inspired, self-identifying as "Mormon" would be a mistake.* I think removing abortion rights from feminism is as impossible as removing Joseph Smith from Mormon belief.

*I see there could be some ambiguity for the label "Mormon" because it could mean simply "a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints;" I think if you look at popular usage, even those who are actually members of the Church, but don't believe in its teachings anymore, do not identify themselves as Mormon.

P.S. I think this is a pretty convoluted post, but I don't have time to edit it right now.

wired wrote:I think the difference between the two is that the label "Mormon" is a label that has an institution behind which can verify whether or not that label is used accurately.

That presupposes that it's only the LDS Church that has the right to the term.

Katya wrote:

wired wrote:I think the difference between the two is that the label "Mormon" is a label that has an institution behind which can verify whether or not that label is used accurately.

That presupposes that it's only the LDS Church that has the right to the term.

Yeah I am willing to pre-suppose that, much the way that "Catholic" refers to members of the Roman Catholic Church, as opposed to members of other off-shoot Churches like the Old Catholic Church. Though I wouldn't say it's a matter of the Church having the "right to the term," so much as it is about what is commonly accepted as the designation. Even now, in popular usage, off-shoots are referred to as "Mormon fundamentalists" as opposed to "Mormons."

Yes, it does presuppose that, but I don't think that is a stretch. All other institutions are dwarfed by it, and almost all other institutions that would've had claim to the term either have gone through massive changes and are entirely different from the book from which the term originates, or have adhered more closely to original thoughts and ideas of the infant church and thus more suited to the term "fundamentalist mormon".

My apologies for this off-topic rant. On topic, I still maintain that a specific opinion on abortion is not necessary to claim some principles which the feminist movement(s) espouse or have espoused, and thereby claim the title "feminist".

wired wrote:Though I wouldn't say it's a matter of the Church having the "right to the term," so much as it is about what is commonly accepted as the designation.

Absolutely, but now you're saying that "Mormon = LDS" because that's the common designation of the term. And the "common designation" of a word tends to have fuzzy boundaries or shift over time. So if your authority on meaning is what's commonly accepted, and if the general populace decides that "Mormon" includes now "Fundamentalist Mormon" (even if it's not the prototypical example), then your argument that the LDS Church gets to

wired wrote:verify whether or not that label is used accurately

falls flat, because they're not the authority on the meaning of the term.

wired wrote:As a venting point - and being a bit judgmental admittedly - I think some people at BYU identify themselves as feminist simply for the shock factor.

I suppose that's the flip side of thoughtless conformity.

agreed. I had the opportunity to teach a bishop and his daughter from the Church of Jesus Christ, and compare some of the differences in our Books of Mormon. (I'd never seen a red-letter BoM before; rather interesting.)

Personally, I am of the opinion that such titles can be misleading at best and damaging at worst. By declaring "I am a(n) X" not only are we signing our names under whatever associations 'X' brings to others' minds, but we also stand the risk of immediately disregarding anything we perceive as 'not X'.

Anecdote time: I once had the opportunity to witness a debate between a self-acclaimed pro-choice individual and an avowed pro-life individual. One was arguing that aborting a fetus was taking an otherwise viable life, thus murder; while the other brought up rape, incest, and mother-at-risk pregnancies as cases where they felt abortions to be viable options. It soon degraded to the obvious point where neither one was hearing a word the other said, due to their being on 'the wrong side'. A happy medium was not sought, nor it's potential existence even acknowledged.

Thus, I try my darndest to not associate abortion rights nor any specifics with the term "feminism", as I'd be wrong each time I used that preconceived notion with someone who did not.

Katya wrote:

wired wrote:As a venting point - and being a bit judgmental admittedly - I think some people at BYU identify themselves as feminist simply for the shock factor.

I suppose that's the flip side of thoughtless conformity.

Heh, thoughtless non-conformity... perhaps all too often conformity to a less well-defined group.

Tao wrote:Anecdote time: I once had the opportunity to witness a debate between a self-acclaimed pro-choice individual and an avowed pro-life individual. One was arguing that aborting a fetus was taking an otherwise viable life, thus murder; while the other brought up rape, incest, and mother-at-risk pregnancies as cases where they felt abortions to be viable options. It soon degraded to the obvious point where neither one was hearing a word the other said, due to their being on 'the wrong side'. A happy medium was not sought, nor it's potential existence even acknowledged.

This is why I don't argue politics much, even though I care a lot about political and social issues. I'm only interested in debating with people who are genuinely trying to understand the other side and approach a consensus (and I hope to emulate those values, myself).

Katya, reading over your post, I don't think I disagree with your assessment of my argument. Let's see if I can tighten it up to make it more convincing (because right now I don't think I'm convinced....)

There is "who are Mormons" and "what do Mormons believe." (This can also be said for "who are feminists" and "what do feminists believe.") By popular designation, Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, popular designation does not then determine the answer to what Mormons believe. Rather, since popular designation has classified Mormons by their affiliation with an institution, that institution determines what Mormons believe. However, if "Mormon" came commonly to mean "anyone who believes in the Book of Mormon," then you are right, the LDS Church no longer becomes the sponsoring institution of Mormon belief. Mormon would then be comparable to the term "Christian," which has no clear institution responsible for determining what Christians believe.

"Feminist," as with "Christian," is broad without a clear sponsoring institution to determine what they actually believe. In this case, the question of "who are Feminists" or "who are Christians" becomes almost synonymous with "what do Feminists/Christians believe." There are a few core ideas or beliefs which define this people. For instance, the majority of people would believe that "Christian" means, at the very least, someone who believes Jesus Christ has good teachings we should try to follow. (There are probably more stringent characteristics, but I am trying to offer a solid one to make sure this argument works.) If someone thought all of Jesus teachings were evil, they would not be considered "Christian."

I think "feminists" are defined by what they believe. I also think that popular designation would preclude people who are for narrow abortion access from being feminists.

Katya wrote:

wired wrote:As a venting point - and being a bit judgmental admittedly - I think some people at BYU identify themselves as feminist simply for the shock factor.

I suppose that's the flip side of thoughtless conformity.

+1. I deplore both.

I agree with Tao as well. I try to avoid designations and, similarly, try not to attach my pre-conceived notions to people who do use labels. Nevertheless, people use labels as a way to quickly convey large amounts of information (kind of like gmail...) and I am arguing against using a particular label because an inappropriate emai... er.... political idea would come up with that label. (And by inappropriate, I mean one that the user of the label may not associated with him or her.)

About forty or fifty years ago my mother surprised me by saying she was a feminist. Turns out what she meant by that was that she thought women should have some rights and respect. Since then I have seen such a broad range of what it means to be a feminist that I've concluded that anyone who isn't a complete misogynist can claim to be a feminist.

When something can mean anything at all, it really doesn't mean anything.

wired wrote:By popular designation, Mormons are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is actually where we disagree. From my experiences talking to people who (1) found out I was Mormon and (2) asked me how many wives my dad has, I think that a significant segment of the population includes "Fundamentalist Mormon" in their definition of Mormon. (I suppose you could also argue that they're confusing the two, but not conflating the two, in which case your argument would be valid.)

I was going to answer this question but I have been on family torture, er, I mean vacation.

I consider myself a feminist in that I do not believe socially constructed gender roles should be universally enforced. Simple as that. I will probably end up writing another feminist rant in the future, so I'll save my juicy ideas for then. In the mean time, I need to go back to pretending to enjoy this vacation.

- Hypatia

P.S. If you want to read some great feminist literature, I recommend "Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History."

vorpal blade wrote:I've concluded that anyone who isn't a complete misogynist can claim to be a feminist.

Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel about. It means so many different things that it doesn't immediately make me think of one particular issue when someone says they're a feminist.