The measure of need #46890

[vorpal blade]

That's very interesting that several board writers think that it's a fallacy that women don't need as much physicality as men.

How does one measure the extent of a person's need for physicality? The number of times a day one feels a need? The intensity of the feeling or need? If a squeeze of the hand is enough to satisfy one person's need, but only gets the other person started, is the need the same?

[Imogen]

it's a total fallacy that is partially fed by society's need to control a woman's sexuality that's been going on for centuries. victorian era people believed women had NO sexual feelings and no sexuality, which is why lesbianism was not added into the laws against homosexuality in england. female sexuality has been a commodity for centuries, and teaching women that they don't NEED sex as much as men is one way of doing that.


but it's utter crap. i LOVE all things sexual. i love kissing. and because sex is such an important part of marriage, i couldn't IMAGINE marrying someone i wasn't interested in sexually AT ALL. it's possible to see someone as attractive and not be attracted to them, and if that's the case with the questioner, she should evaluate her feelings. because the worst thing that could happen is she just ENDURES sex and never enjoys it or sees how it can strengthen and even destroy a marriage.

[Cognoscente]

One of the great myths that I believed going through adolescence was that men were the "driven" ones and women were uninterested in sex. After talking to many women, including several close friends over the years... I've learned that women are JUST as dirty minded and antsy as men are. Sometimes even moreso! They're just way better than us at hiding it, or more often deny it or feel guilty about it.

Sex is phenomenally important in marriage. Part of me wishes that with all the classes and literature the church diffuses to teach how to cultivate an eternal marriage through communication and empathy and all that... they would throw out a few classes on teaching latter day saints to all be fantastic lovers. THAT would be awesome.

[jooniper]

first, I want to say I think Steen did an awesome job of answering the question.

I do think that physically, men are more hard-wired to need, um, "physicality" more than women. I mean, women's bodies don't give them a hard time if they go a while without... release. Men, from what I understand, have a bit more of a physical urgency. Mentally/emotionally, though, I think it may even out in many cases. I was a cuddle whore, for sure... I am a clingy, needy person in relationships, when it comes to the physical stuff. I need cuddles and hand holding, I often initiated first kisses, and I'm just as responsible as the boys involved in the cases where we probably did more than we should have (no, no carnal sins. Just getting carried away more than we should have. I'm happily temply married now).
Fortunately I married a man who needs cuddles, hand holding and the rest as much as I do. I'd say we're pretty even there, which makes me very happy.

That said, I do wish I could offer another perspective to the question at hand: I wasn't hugely attracted to my husband pre-engagement. I knew he made me happy though. Of the men/boys I've kissed, he probably ranks 5 or 6 of 7 (and none of you know him, or me, and he's not a big peruser of the interwebs so I can say this without shame). There have been times I pulled away from kisses because they just weren't "doing it" for me. He doesn't have hardly any of the characteristics I would normally look for in a guy, physically. But that was two years ago. Now, I look at him, the father of my child and my knight in shining armor, and I find him dead sexy. Still don't like kissing him all that much though. He needs to shave more;). He makes up for the imperfect kissing in other ways. Kissing is a very small part of a successful marriage (not saying physical attraction is a small part, just that kissing shouldn't be a "deal-breaker"). I absolutely have no regrets about marrying him and not someone I found more attractive at the time. As my needs matured, he became exactly what I needed as far as attraction goes.
The guy that's number one on my list of good kissers could NEVER have made me 1/10th as happy as my husband has. We've been wonderfully and happily married for two years.

[Laser Jock]

This is a pretty complex question, I think. Imogen made a good point about the influence of Victorian thinking on our culture. I also think that jooniper is right about women focusing more on the emotional side and a little less on the physical. I'm curious--what else could influence this common belief? Maybe part of it is that men are traditionally expected to lead relationships, so it could be seen as "forward" of a girl to admit that she liked the physical side of things, let alone express a strong preference? (Note that I'm not saying I feel this way, but it does seem to fit into our culture.)

I, too, grew up thinking that girls just didn't care too much one way or the other for kissing, cuddling, and the like. I know that I've been surprised to talk to some of my female friends and have them flat-out contradict this. However, I do also know of a couple of women (both married) who have nearly zero interest in anything physical. I'm starting to believe that they're in the minority, but there are definitely people out there who just don't see it as being important.

[Imogen]

well, i don't know about y'all, but i don't get all wrapped up in emotion about physical things. i may be in the minority, but i think it's perfectly possible for women to want something physical and have no emotional attachment to the person. actually, i know it's more than possible. it happens all the time. and, honestly, it's made me a lot happier than being emotionally entangled with another person, especially since i just graduated. college and a relationship would've been too much.

i think a problem arrises when one person finds the physical important and the other doesn't. although i'm not catholic, i think it's smart they require marriage counseling before a wedding because you can figure that sort of thing out BEFORE you get married and end up paying for an expensive divorce. it's absolutely something the questioner and her boyfriend should discuss because it really could damage her marriage. to me, it sounded like she's not attracted to him AT ALL, and that's really sad. it's one thing to find him less attractive than other men you've dated (i felt that way about a guy i was involved with for 6 years.) but i think it's another to NEVER want to kiss him. maybe she needs to see a therapist? if this has happened with other guys maybe she's got some sort of issue with sex.

i just really can't imagine having NO desire to kiss my husband EVER. maybe when he's smelly or hasn't shaved. but NEVER? no thank you.

ETA: men's bodies don't really give them that hard of a time if they don't have sex. i've had boys tell me that, and they're full of it. guys i've dated and close friends have admitted that most guys make that up so the girl will feel bad and sleep with them (creepy much?). but i know, for me, i get physically and mentally pent up. both sexes are hard wired to pursue and want sex (for pleasure and baby-making).

[jooniper]

ETA: men's bodies don't really give them that hard of a time if they don't have sex. i've had boys tell me that, and they're full of it. guys i've dated and close friends have admitted that most guys make that up so the girl will feel bad and sleep with them (creepy much?). but i know, for me, i get physically and mentally pent up. both sexes are hard wired to pursue and want sex (for pleasure and baby-making).

Imogen, I generally agree with you, and I really don't want to be snarky, but on this case, I'm going to say you may be short an anatomy lesson or two. I learned all sorts of things when I got married that as a young lady in the church, I was completely oblivious to. The only reason I bother writing about this is that it's a bit of a touchy subject on two points:
1) No one ever explained to my husband how the male body works post-puberty. He spent 6 years (until his mission) thinking he was bound for hell because he couldn't control certain physical aspects of being a guy.
2) Had I known what was going on for him or any of my male friends, I probably would have judged them, because I was naive and misinformed.

I believe there are cases where guys will make up the physical urgency to guilt a girl into going too far. I will agree with that. But I won't go so far as to say that guys don't need a physical release and that THAT part is just made up.
(trying to think of a way to put this euphemistically... eh, shoot, I can't think of one) But physically, a girl can go their whole life without an orgasm. Many women live happy lives that way. A guy can't go past puberty, and it's not really in their control. Whether they get their release from the ladies or from dreams at night, it happens. When those dreams don't come, and it's a righteous young man who doesn't use unrighteous means to get that release, you can bet they get uncomfortable.
That is what I was getting at in my earlier post- they really are hard-wired to build up the stuff they need to make babies, and if the opportunity doesn't arise to make babies, they're still hardwired to release all that babymakingness. Women, on the other hand, while enjoying the physical aspect of a relationship, have a little more ease waiting til the timing is right- after all, evolution-wise, they'd be the ones caring for the result of poorly timed sex.

I definitely don't think we can make a line down the middle and say "well, THESE needs are emotional and THOSE needs are physical", because they really are all linked. Even a female enjoying/needing NCMO might be an emotional need mixed with a physical one. In retrospect, for me (and I was a NCMOer from time to time), it was mostly emotional, even if there was no emotional attachment.

[Imogen]

1) No one ever explained to my husband how the male body works post-puberty. He spent 6 years (until his mission) thinking he was bound for hell because he couldn't control certain physical aspects of being a guy.
2) Had I known what was going on for him or any of my male friends, I probably would have judged them, because I was naive and misinformed.

with these two sentences you have defined why i a)avoid organized religion (all of them) and b)think we need comprehensive sex education for people. and i disagree that women can go through life without orgasms. it's been proven that the female orgasm aids in reproduction and general happiness. also, they're awesome.

[Cognoscente]

i disagree that women can go through life without orgasms. it's been proven that the female orgasm aids in reproduction and general happiness. also, they're awesome.

I think her argument was that women can go through life without orgasms if they are unfortunate enough, not that they should. In less enlightened times a lot of women hated sex for that reason.

That said, I would just like to announce that I am completely in favor of discussions about female orgasms.

[jooniper]

1) No one ever explained to my husband how the male body works post-puberty. He spent 6 years (until his mission) thinking he was bound for hell because he couldn't control certain physical aspects of being a guy.
2) Had I known what was going on for him or any of my male friends, I probably would have judged them, because I was naive and misinformed.

with these two sentences you have defined why i a)avoid organized religion (all of them) and b)think we need comprehensive sex education for people. and i disagree that women can go through life without orgasms. it's been proven that the female orgasm aids in reproduction and general happiness. also, they're awesome.

Ah, see I'd say those two sentences were evidence for the case against IGNORANCE, which can reside in any part of the human experience. We (husband and I) are both still members of the same organized religion and, now better enlightened, neither of those sentences are a problem. So let's all get better educated in whatever religion we practice (organized or no).

And yes, cognoscente got my point: women CAN go without orgasms, whether it is desirable for them or not. They can also make babies without them. Their bodies don't get uncomfortable if they don't have them- though I suppose they might be more "comfortable" if they do have them. I know a few women, with children and happy marriages, who don't have them hardly ever (in one case I know of, don't have them at all) but still feel perfectly fit and fine.
If a female egg goes unused, it simply leaves their system with no big fanfare and the cycle continues. While that (menstruation) might be a little uncomfortable, it's not nearly as uncomfortable as the alternative (pregnancy and labor).
Whereas if men have a build up of sperm with no release, things do get uncomfortable. Sometimes painfully so. I wish women would give men more credit for the trials inherent in being a celibate male. It's some big shameful secret. I know (honest and intentionally celibate) engaged guys who, unbeknownst to their future spouses, have needed ice packs after dates because the pressure was too much. I think their girls would have given them a bit more leeway and made efforts to not build up that pressure if they knew.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

A guy can't go past puberty, and it's not really in their control.

Wait, we don't have control over those things? Well I can stop my search for the on/off button I have heard so much about.

And yes, I agree Imogen, there should be better sex ed classes, or a manual of some type, or something.

[vorpal blade]

Here is what I believe.

Human beings differ greatly in their need for physicality. I’ve known babies who cried and were fearful unless they were held constantly. They couldn’t fall asleep except in the arms of the mother or father. Other children in the same family did not wish to be held, and were fussy when tired until they were allowed to lie down by themselves and fall asleep.

Some women want to have sex daily or more often. Others feel violated if they have sex more than once a month. Men also differ greatly on their need for sex and physical intimacy.

Needs for physicality do change over a lifetime. Generally a man’s needs tend to diminish faster than a woman’s needs. Of course there are many exceptions.

Many factors influence the need. The more stimulus the greater the need grows. Pornography and self-stimulation provide at best temporary relief, but the need soon returns stronger than ever. Constantly thinking about your needs increases the needs.

Mood can influence your perception of need. For most women enjoyment of physicality, especially sexual relations, only occurs when all other factors of the relationship are positive. For most men the presence of satisfactory sexual relations pretty much determines that he will have a positive view of all other factors in the relationship.

If a woman is upset with a man she doesn’t feel the need for physicality. She can be upset with a man for something simple, such as his forgetting to pick up the Sacrament program when they enter the chapel. She might not feel the need for physicality for several days after that. Men may be upset with their wives, but that feeling soon evaporates when the prospect of sexual relations is in the offing.

I remember an old Mad Magazine cartoon where the wife yells at her husband, “You just use affection to get sex!” To which he replies, “You just use sex to get affection!” They pause, look at each other, and simultaneously say, “Use me!”

I am glad we have moved on from older stereotypes that “good” women don’t enjoy sex, only “bad” women do. It is great that we have learned to appreciate that both men and women have real physical and emotional needs. I just don’t see the benefit of claiming that women’s needs for physicality are just as great as men’s needs. Everyone is different, and their needs are different.

Perhaps you’ve heard a parent say when spanking a child, “This hurts me more than it does you.” I heard that as a child, and I always thought, “Let’s trade places.” Parents do feel pain, but it isn’t the same kind of pain.

Likewise, a man would be unwise to say that watching his wife give birth “hurts him just as much as her pain in giving birth hurts her.” We can’t really tell how much something hurts another, and we can’t really tell how much someone feels a need.

Probably we should leave it this way: it is just as important for a woman to fulfill her needs for physicality as it is for a man.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Perhaps you’ve heard a parent say when spanking a child, “This hurts me more than it does you.” I heard that as a child, and I always thought, “Let’s trade places.” Parents do feel pain, but it isn’t the same kind of pain.

Probably we should leave it this way: it is just as important for a woman to fulfill her needs for physicality as it is for a man.

Actually... there does always come a time when spanking children hurts the hand more than the bottom.


As for the rest, thanks for stating the obvious for us. We would have been lost without all your sage advice and research essay style ending. We now know that both genders need some sort of physical need. Except those that are machines, and Hobbes' Death Squad, who only desire anarchy.

[bismark]

vorpy just got OWNED.

[Fredjikrang]

Oh, I thought that it was Sarrmm that was being rude. Guess I was mistaken.

[jooniper]

Hey, sometimes the painfully obvious isn't obvious to both genders. I've been really surprised a few times by the misinformation flying around amongst the youth of the church.
ETA: I was one of the misinformed ones before my wedding. And I've since discovered that most of my newly married female friends had had the same misunderstandings.

[bobtheenchantedone]

Between my mother and ChaCha, I'm pretty sure I will not be one of the misinformed ones.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Hey, sometimes the painfully obvious isn't obvious to both genders. I've been really surprised a few times by the misinformation flying around amongst the youth of the church.
ETA: I was one of the misinformed ones before my wedding. And I've since discovered that most of my newly married female friends had had the same misunderstandings.

I would say that I am not of those misinformed people, just uninformed. And I think I prefer it that way.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

Oh, I thought that it was Sarrmm that was being rude. Guess I was mistaken.

It was actually sarcasm, if a bit biting. And maybe rude, it's a fine line. I wasn't trying to be insulting though.

[SWKT Parachuter]

Sometimes it's hard for me to tell if Nantipoo is trying to be sarcastic or if he's just saying something dumb again. I actually thought he was just saying something dumb that time, especially because vorpal had made a legit point about treating people as individuals rather than as members of a gender.