Imogen wrote:Portia wrote:Imogen wrote:vorpal,
no i do not agree there are things that make you look like a man or a woman. if you mean secondary sex characteristics like breasts or pubic hair, then sure. but how much hair a man has on his legs or his chest, no no no. a man can look manly with or without leg hair or chest hair. a woman can look like a woman without breasts and shaved legs.
and what, pray tell, is "feminine" social behavior? being quiet? doing your work? showing respect? because i expect that of all my students, and i wouldn't say that's "feminine." you seem very wrapped up in the idea of "manliness" and "femininity" when those expectations are COMPLETELY socially constructed. boys used to wear dresses, did you know that? that was a normal societal thing. or men wearing tunics and tights, which is now considered "girlie." the idea of what constitutes manly or feminine behavior is made up by society, it's not set in stone.
and i was saying the attitude of "boys will be boys" is a negative attitude. it's detrimental to children. i don't accept that as an excuse for rowdy, poor behavior.
and i don't think this has anything to do with my age. my age is totally irrelevant to this conversation. just because i'm younger than you doesn't mean my ideas are less valid.
I would actually put a greater amount of body hair in the
secondary sex characteristic category for men.
i wouldn't only because i know so many men who naturally don't have a lot of body hair. no chest hair, short leg and arm hair.
and vorpal, the idea that boys are more aggressive and rowdy is yet another social construct. children act in the way we expect. if we EXPECT bad behavior, we get it. if we expect good behavior, we usually get it. that's something i've discovered in teaching. no gender has a lock on being disruptive or rowdy, and plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. i had a dear guy friend who was ADD and on medication, but he was never rowdy or misbehaved when we were kids. his grades were just really bad because he couldn't focus on work and absorb information properly.
studies have shown that girls are just as aggressive as boys (especially psychologically), if not more so. i'll have to go on a lexus nexus search to find them, but they're very interesting. things like levels of aggressiveness are mostly attributed to family history and environment, not gender. having a penis is STILL no excuse for being ill behaved and i don't think an expectation of good behavior is feminizing.
Having grown up with two younger sisters and three younger brothers, I’ve seen first hand that boys are just start out in life reacting differently from girls. It isn’t something we impose on children. It isn’t a result of our expectations. I also was taught that all differences between male and female are due to nurture, not nature. For awhile I started to believe it, despite my own observations. Then I had seven children of my own and I could see that there are intrinsic differences. It wasn’t something my wife or I did to make them that way. I do believe that society can strongly influence how the children will develop, and can in many ways subvert the natural inclinations and behavior of children, making boys act more feminine and girls more masculine.
Of course, not every boy will be uninterested in dolls and head for the truck toys. Not every girl will like to nurture and care for baby dolls. Some little girls will be attracted to the trucks. And that is okay. But it would be a mistake to believe that all little girl interest in dolls is due to being told that that is what they are supposed to have interest in. Sometime adults say such things, but usually girls come by it very naturally.
I certainly agree that our observations are colored by what we expect, and often children behave in ways that meet our expectations. This is true of my observations, but it is also true of your observations. You expect that all differences between boys and girls are a social construct, so that is what you see.
True, plenty of girls are diagnosed as ADD. This doesn’t prove that boys and girls are identical. Boys are three to four times as likely to be diagnosed as having ADHD as are girls. Furthermore, experts estimate that about two million children have ADHD, but six million children currently are given ADHD prescription drugs for the symptoms of Attention Deficient Disorder. It would seem that a whole lot of children are getting the drug for behavior that teachers feel is unsuitable, but don’t really have ADHD.
The American Psychiatric Association describes a hyperactive child as “One who exhibits behavior such as fidgeting, squirming, answering questions before being called on, difficulty playing quietly, engaging in physically dangerous activities such as running into the street without looking, or one who has difficulty following instructions." Maybe you think that girls are just as likely as boys to exhibit these symptoms, but I think most people who live or work with young children would disagree.
Girls may be just as aggressive as boys in their own way, but that is the point. The way girls are aggressive is usually different from the way boys are different, because boys are different from girls.
You’ve clearly identified aggressiveness and rowdiness as “bad behavior,†and being “ill behaved.†You realize that is a judgment, don’t you? You see it as your job as a school teacher to teach them that such behavior is “bad†and “ill.†You expect them to behavior “better†in your class. You’re molding little minds of mush, some might say.
One of the things I’ve learned as a parent is that some of the most objectionable behavior in my children is not necessarily
bad traits. I want my child to do want I want him to do, but he is being stubborn and uncooperative. As a parent I find that frustrating. Yet, in a teenager or adult, I want my child to stubbornly refuse to go along with peer pressure. I want my child to stubbornly resist evil pressures in the world. I have to be very careful to not break my child of a trait which in later years will be essential to his or her success in life.
“Aggressive†behavior can be good behavior. While I need to teach my children to respect others and their property, I have to do it in a way that doesn’t teach them that aggressive behavior is bad or unacceptable. Aggressive also means “having or showing determination and energetic pursuit of your ends.†That is a good thing, when properly channeled and controlled. When you punish, or drug, a boy for being aggressive in the way boys are typically aggressive, yet do nothing to teach a girl to control her aggression, because her form of aggression is not disruptive to your class discipline, you effectively feminize your children.
Similarly other behavior - fidgeting, squirming, answering questions before being called on, difficulty in playing quietly, risk taking - can make teaching or parenting difficult. But they are also primarily boy-like qualities which are not necessarily evil. Boys have a greater need for physical activity, which helps prepare them for roles they will later have. I don’t mean that girls have
no need for physical activity, it is just not usually as great as a boy’s need. If you follow each boy-like attribute into manhood you can see a need for it. Crush it and you raise a generation of wimps.