I'm going to have to disagree with you, Cuddlefish. It costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time to do a background check for anyone. It just isn't worth it do it for a janitor, especially if the level of classification is sufficiently high. So what they do is permit the janitors to do their cleaning only while someone with appropriate clearance is in the office to watch all that the janitors do. The janitors are not given "keys" to the room, and care is taken to make sure nothing classified is out in the open, or on a computer monitor, while the janitors are present. The janitors don't have free access to the area, but are escorted at all times. The janitors vacuum and empty the unclassified trash, but they don't actually do any dusting. At the end of the day someone makes sure the area is secure before leaving, just in case an unauthorized person gains access to the room during non office hours.
I suppose there could be some variations from place to place.
#53439 Who cleans the offices of top CIA agents?
Moderator: Marduk
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vorpal blade
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Waldorf and Sauron
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Cuddlefish
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Vorpal Blade, I am well aware of how much it costs to do backround checks. My sister works for the main company in the US that does them. I would like to point out that most of what you stated was in my original response. Of course the janitors wouldn't handle with classified information; they have no 'need to know', and it would be locked away.
I don't know if you have any experience with this sort of thing, but I do work at a government facility where a heck of a lot of top secret material is dealt with regularly. I deal mainly in security training, so I do have a good idea of security guidelines for classified matter protection, and frankly, I find it insulting that you just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about.
I don't know if you have any experience with this sort of thing, but I do work at a government facility where a heck of a lot of top secret material is dealt with regularly. I deal mainly in security training, so I do have a good idea of security guidelines for classified matter protection, and frankly, I find it insulting that you just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about.
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vorpal blade
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Foreman: I could tell you, but then I'd have to...well, you've probably heard the line. Just check with Cuddlefish. She will vouch that most of what I stated was in her original response. So there you go.
Waldorf and Sauron: As the saying goes, it doesn't have to make sense, it's government policy. Actually, they don't hire a janitor babysitter. The janitors ask permission to come into the room. Everyone makes sure classified material is not in view. The cleared workers may have to pause while the janitors do their work. Who knows, it might end up costing more in labor time lost this way, if you add up all the moments of professional time lost waiting for the janitors to leave. But the people who make these kinds of decisions aren't looking at the overall picture. And keep in mind that there has been a severe backlog in doing the background checks, so it can easily take several years before the clearance comes through. That's a long time to wait for your janitor to begin working in a classified facility. Do you pay them for a couple of years for doing nothing before they begin work?
Cuddlefish: Could you please explain this apparent contradiction to me? "I would like to point out that most of what you stated was in my original response." And "I find it insulting that you just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about." Thanks
Waldorf and Sauron: As the saying goes, it doesn't have to make sense, it's government policy. Actually, they don't hire a janitor babysitter. The janitors ask permission to come into the room. Everyone makes sure classified material is not in view. The cleared workers may have to pause while the janitors do their work. Who knows, it might end up costing more in labor time lost this way, if you add up all the moments of professional time lost waiting for the janitors to leave. But the people who make these kinds of decisions aren't looking at the overall picture. And keep in mind that there has been a severe backlog in doing the background checks, so it can easily take several years before the clearance comes through. That's a long time to wait for your janitor to begin working in a classified facility. Do you pay them for a couple of years for doing nothing before they begin work?
Cuddlefish: Could you please explain this apparent contradiction to me? "I would like to point out that most of what you stated was in my original response." And "I find it insulting that you just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about." Thanks
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Cuddlefish
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There is no contradiction. Most of my original response is included in your correction (which is not correct), and I am indeed insulted that you assumed that I was wrong without providing any sources or personal experience to back up your statements. Please do so if you expect to be taken seriously. I don't like people who pretend to be smart so they can look good.
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vorpal blade
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Krebscout: Right you are, and it is okay.
Cuddlefish: I never assumed that you didn't know what you were talking about. You obviously know something, and I acknowledged that by saying things that agree with what you said. And as I said, I suppose there could be some variations from place to place.
Since 1975 I've worked in a government facility that deals with confidential, secret, top secret, special access required, intelligence derived information, and other special programs. I'm not sure you are aware that data from intelligence sources is handled differently. Not only have I worked in this facility for 34 years, but I've visited numerous other government (including the CIA) and contractor facilities around the country which handle classified material. I, too, have friends and family who work in various places I won't mention here.
I just disagreed with two of your original statements. "If it's anything like where I work (and I suspect it is), the janitors would need to have the appropriate level of clearance to access that part of the building." And, "The answer to your question is: trusted, well-trained janitors, who are screened very, very well before they get access to cleared areas."
In my experience the janitors do not have the appropriate level of clearance to access that part of the building, if you mean that they can freely go around the facility without an escort, or they are permitted in the facility when a cleared person is not there to watch them. They do not have a confidential, secret, or top secret clearance, let alone a need to know. So, I'm not sure what you mean by an "appropriate level of clearance" since no level of clearance is required of them. Certainly a minimial amount of background check, such as any employer would perform, would be required before they were hired. This does not qualify as a "level of clearance" as the phrase is commonly used in the classified world. So, perhaps I just didn't understand what you meant to say.
In my experience the janitors are not trusted or trained, and they are given only a minimal about of screening. A contractor hires some people who don't have a long crime record, and have a couple of references from their last place of employment. Nothing like what is required for a clearance to truly have access to classified parts of the building. I'm amazed that in your facility, which I don't think exceeds the facilities I'm aware of in terms of security, would check into the janitors any more than janitors hired to clean a bar.
I have known employees who assumed the janitors were somehow cleared to be in the area.
Cuddlefish: I never assumed that you didn't know what you were talking about. You obviously know something, and I acknowledged that by saying things that agree with what you said. And as I said, I suppose there could be some variations from place to place.
Since 1975 I've worked in a government facility that deals with confidential, secret, top secret, special access required, intelligence derived information, and other special programs. I'm not sure you are aware that data from intelligence sources is handled differently. Not only have I worked in this facility for 34 years, but I've visited numerous other government (including the CIA) and contractor facilities around the country which handle classified material. I, too, have friends and family who work in various places I won't mention here.
I just disagreed with two of your original statements. "If it's anything like where I work (and I suspect it is), the janitors would need to have the appropriate level of clearance to access that part of the building." And, "The answer to your question is: trusted, well-trained janitors, who are screened very, very well before they get access to cleared areas."
In my experience the janitors do not have the appropriate level of clearance to access that part of the building, if you mean that they can freely go around the facility without an escort, or they are permitted in the facility when a cleared person is not there to watch them. They do not have a confidential, secret, or top secret clearance, let alone a need to know. So, I'm not sure what you mean by an "appropriate level of clearance" since no level of clearance is required of them. Certainly a minimial amount of background check, such as any employer would perform, would be required before they were hired. This does not qualify as a "level of clearance" as the phrase is commonly used in the classified world. So, perhaps I just didn't understand what you meant to say.
In my experience the janitors are not trusted or trained, and they are given only a minimal about of screening. A contractor hires some people who don't have a long crime record, and have a couple of references from their last place of employment. Nothing like what is required for a clearance to truly have access to classified parts of the building. I'm amazed that in your facility, which I don't think exceeds the facilities I'm aware of in terms of security, would check into the janitors any more than janitors hired to clean a bar.
I have known employees who assumed the janitors were somehow cleared to be in the area.
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Cuddlefish
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I think the difference between our two facilities is the fact that in many cases where I work, it is impossible to completely hide secret material in some areas, so clearance and trust is required. I hadn't really thought about the differences in handling the materials bases on their sources; it makes sense, but I had assumed that all secret material at all facilities was handled in the same sort of ways. I apologize for being so harsh, but I do request that in the future, you cite your corrections to save everyone the trouble of arguing with you.
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vorpal blade
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I apologize for phrasing my initial comment in such a way as to cause you some distress.
I do not like to reveal personal details about myself. I was hoping to avoid it. I didn't think citing my corrections would make any difference in this case, but you have proven me wrong on that. I rather doubt that my future use of citations will prevent someone from arguing with me in every case. Usually my references only invite counter references, disbelief, or further argument.
However, I do see your point.
Well, having secret material that you can't completely hide makes a difference. I was thinking of office space, which is usually in a building separate from really big classified hardware. In the facilities I'm aware of, something classified, that would reveal classified information just by looking at it, is kept locked up so you can't see it. It might be in a clean room, safe, or vault, which are not touched by the janitors. If it is really big, like an airplane or satellite, it is kept in a separate building that janitors don't have access to. Some of these places look to me like they haven't been cleaned in a while. In other places the personnel that service the classified hardware also do the clean up. I think that is the way it usually works, but I don't know every case. If your facility is small, so it isn't feasible to physically separate the space with the large-classified-cannot-hide stuff from the office space, I can see why you might have to do something like get security clearances for the janitors.
I do not like to reveal personal details about myself. I was hoping to avoid it. I didn't think citing my corrections would make any difference in this case, but you have proven me wrong on that. I rather doubt that my future use of citations will prevent someone from arguing with me in every case. Usually my references only invite counter references, disbelief, or further argument.
However, I do see your point.Well, having secret material that you can't completely hide makes a difference. I was thinking of office space, which is usually in a building separate from really big classified hardware. In the facilities I'm aware of, something classified, that would reveal classified information just by looking at it, is kept locked up so you can't see it. It might be in a clean room, safe, or vault, which are not touched by the janitors. If it is really big, like an airplane or satellite, it is kept in a separate building that janitors don't have access to. Some of these places look to me like they haven't been cleaned in a while. In other places the personnel that service the classified hardware also do the clean up. I think that is the way it usually works, but I don't know every case. If your facility is small, so it isn't feasible to physically separate the space with the large-classified-cannot-hide stuff from the office space, I can see why you might have to do something like get security clearances for the janitors.