Ordinances for the Earth

[Damasta]

Groan.

1. The Earth doesn't need any saving ordinances. It doesn't have moral agency, so it fills the measure of its creation (D&C 88:19, 25)! Baptism follows repentance, but since the Earth can't sin, it has nothing to repent of and so requires no baptism. Other things which fell during Adam's transgression (the Sun, animals, plants, bacteria, the Andromeda galaxy, &c.) don't need (nor have received) saving ordinances. The only creatures (in the sense of "something created") which require saving ordinances are human beings, created in the image of God and endowed with moral agency.

2. The saving ordinances must be performed by a priesthood holder. I don't think anyone was floating out in space, with their arm raised to the square, when the Noachian Flood happened. And what is the Earth's full name, for that matter?

3. The baptism of the Earth by water and by fire are symbolic. Just like the Israelite passage through the Red Sea was a symbolic rather than literal baptism (1 Cor. 10:1-2). In fact, the Flood may not have even been global, as is commonly assumed in the Church. If true, that further weakens the argument that the Earth needed baptism.

So I conclude that the Earth will be celestialized through the power of the Atonement, but it doesn't not require any of the saving ordinances.

[dzhonatan]

I am in full agreement with everything Damasta said. I'm just going to go on a little tangentially-related side rant.

In Institute one week our teacher asserted that elementary particles have agency, based on Abraham 4:18 (and other verses in that chapter):

And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.

He cited Vaughn J. Featherstone, in October 1999 General Conference, as backup:

Youth, do not feel oppressed by obedience. Obedience is a wonderful and a great privilege. In Abraham 4:18 it states, “And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed.” What if the elements had not obeyed? They would have been damned or held back. So it is with us. Obedience to God is truly the only way to really be free and exercise our agency. Satan teaches the opposite and, with each wrong choice, binds us with chains. I promise you, obedience is a wonderful privilege.

I don't know whether Elder Featherstone came up with the notion that particles (elements) have agency (the ability to choose whether or not to obey) on his own or whether he got it from somebody else (Cleon Skousen held a similar view), but I find it difficult to defend. Boyd K. Packer said, in October 1990 General Conference,

Little do we realize what we have brought upon ourselves when we have allowed our children to be taught that man is only an advanced animal. We have compounded the mistake by neglecting to teach moral and spiritual values. Moral laws do not apply to animals for they have no agency.

I'm going to wager that if animals don't have agency, as then-Elder Packer clearly states, then elementary particles probably don't. And yet Joseph Smith taught that animals would be exalted. Elder John H. Vandenberg, an Assistant to the Council of the Twelve Apostles, made an even clearer statement in the July 1973 Ensign:

Coupled with [the forces of good and evil] is the individual’s power to reason, which only man, of all God’s creations, possesses. This enables him to make choices. [...] We refer to this privilege of choice as the agency of man.

I conclude that only humans have agency, and, like Damasta, I conclude that only humans need the saving ordinances of baptism, etc. Inanimate objects probably do need to be "celestialized," but they're not going to take the covenant of baptism upon themselves or receive an endowment (which is, again, covenants) in the Temple.

[Strangest of all, for me, was that only one other class member and I protested the Institute instructor's statement, while at least a dozen people spoke up in support of it. I don't know when everybody else heard this idea, but I had certainly never heard anything of the sort before...]

[NerdGirl]

dzhonatan, have you ever studied quantum mechanics? The laws of physics, especially as they apply to things on that scale, do not seem to be deterministic. I don't think I would use the word agency to describe elementary particles, but I've become convinced through my study of physics and astronomy (I'm finishing my PhD dissertation right now), as well as the gospel, that elementary particles and maybe everything else in the universe probably does have some sort of power to choose. Animals don't have agency, but I think most people would agree that they do make choices. They aren't robots. Their choices aren't moral choices, because animals don't have reason, but take dogs for example. You have to train them carefully to obey you, and sometimes they decide they'd rather keep jumping on that delivery man than sit down when you tell them to. They make choices. But they don't have the moral knowledge we have, so they can't sin and don't need saving ordinances.

It's my opinion, based on both my knowledge of science and my knowledge of the gospel, that everything that exists has some form of power to choose. Not agency, because that implies a need for saving ordinances. But I think there may be something to what your institute teacher and Elder Featherstone are saying, although your institute teacher is using the wrong word when he says agency. It's certainly not essential for our salvation to understand exactly how it works, but I think we can learn something from the example of Abraham 4:18. Because those things "obeyed" (whatever that may mean), God's creations came into existence. If we obey, then everything God has promised us will come into existence.

I don't think the wording in Abraham is just a literary device. I think it's meant to give us a little bit of insight into the way the universe really works. God can command the elements to do certain things for our benefit, and they obey Him. If He did it then, He can do it now - even things that we may not think are possible. I could go on and on about this, but I won't. I just think that there is more to nature and the universe than we can probably understand with our limited mortal imaginations.

If anyone's actually really interested in the idea of quantum mechanics relating to the gospel, you should listen to this forum talk that Dr. Steven Turley gave a few years ago: http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=browse&spe ... =&x=11&y=5 This doesn't have too much to do with what I'm talking about here, but it brings up some other ideas that are interesting.

[Damasta]

In Institute one week our teacher asserted that elementary particles have agency...

...

I don't know whether Elder Featherstone came up with the notion that particles (elements) have agency (the ability to choose whether or not to obey) on his own or whether he got it from somebody else (Cleon Skousen held a similar view), but I find it difficult to defend.

...

[Strangest of all, for me, was that only one other class member and I protested the Institute instructor's statement, while at least a dozen people spoke up in support of it. I don't know when everybody else heard this idea, but I had certainly never heard anything of the sort before...]

I'd heard it before. One of Cleon Skousen's talks on the matter circulated rampantly through my mission. I suspect that it was popular because it was esoteric and mystical. They also shared, in hushed tones behind cupped hands in dark corners, that Joseph Smith was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ. And that Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary. And that people of African descent were fence-sitters in the War in Heaven. And a slew of other ideas that in all likelihood are utter nonsense.

...elementary particles and maybe everything else in the universe probably does have some sort of power to choose.

...

It's my opinion, based on both my knowledge of science and my knowledge of the gospel, that everything that exists has some form of power to choose. Not agency, because that implies a need for saving ordinances.

I was very careful to designate it as moral agency, because, as you said, there is a lot of decision-making going on outside of the human realm.

I had a roommate who did a Masters Degree in Computer Science. I don't know how his project worked out, but he was using computers to model 2D time scenarios. He explained to me once (but unfortunately I've forgotten his arguments, but they were compelling) that the lack of determinism at the quantum scale may be directly responsible for the existence of free will at our macroscale.

[Tao]

They also shared, in hushed tones behind cupped hands in dark corners, that Joseph Smith was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.

This one is new to me, I've heard various arguments over his 'pure line of Joseph' lineage, but never that he was descended from Christ.

And that Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary.

This one is a common Anti attack taking a true principle that they disagree with, we believe God has a physical body, and that Christ is the literal Son of God, and then they spin it to claim we believe God raped Mary. By pointing to quotes supporting the two principles they claim 'proof' of their conjecture. Ookayy....

And that people of African descent were fence-sitters in the War in Heaven.

I think this one comes from the early publication of Bruce R.'s Mormon Doctrine (the one he was asked not to publish, as it had plenty of his own conjecture seemingly portrayed as a given). In what seemed to be an attempt to rationalize the practices of the time, taking the inverse of Alma 13:3's statement that High Priests were valiant in the pre-existence to suppose that if you do not (or cannot) become a High Priest, you were not valiant. Needless to say, any chance at reasonable support fell away in '78, (if not earlier, by following the same logic while considering women in the church).

And a slew of other ideas that in all likelihood are utter nonsense.

Sigh, too believable. How does the saying go? "the church must be true, else the missionaries would have killed it long ago"?

[dzhonatan]

I've studied quantum physics at a (very) basic level, and I'm well aware of the non-deterministic nature of it. But I don't read anything about choice in Abraham 4:18. The way I read it, the elements obeyed in the same way that I obey the laws of physics. For better or for worse, I can't choose whether or not to be obedient to the law of gravity.

There's the argument, of course, that the gods watched to see that the elements obeyed, which can be construed to suggest that there was a possibility of them not obeying. I'm not really sure I believe that either, though, since I can see plenty of other reasons to watch (simple fascination with the process, having nothing better to do until the elements were done obeying and the next step could begin).

I have a hard time attributing choice to a particle, even if it's a wave at the same time.

[Edit: Also, I read Featherstone as attributing moral choice (agency) to the particles, not just some sort of amoral choice. The decision to obey or disobey the gods, with disobedience resulting in damnation, sounds to me like a moral choice if ever there was one.]

[Marduk]

No other creatures besides humans have moral agency. Period. Even Skousen, whose thoughts are probably the closest to suggesting such a thing, does not expicitly make this argument; only that God is God because the elements obey him, and certain actions would make him "cease to be God" because so doing would make the elements stop their obedience. Honestly, it strikes me as odd that we're even discussing this. It is one of the basic tenets of our faith.

[dzhonatan]

The question is not whether the elements obey God, and nothing we've been talking about has anything to do with God ceasing to be God. The question is whether the elements choose to obey. That's certainly a valid question, and is certainly not a "basic tenet" of our faith.=

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Damasta]

Re: Joseph Smith's lineage. It was primarily based on a narrow interpretation of Isaiah 11:1-5 and the interpretation given in D&C 113:10-6. The line of reasoning is that since the rod "comes out of the stem", the stem is Jesus Christ, the rod is "a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph", Jesus was a descendant of Jesse, and the rod is commonly accepted to be Joseph Smith, the only way he could come out of Jesus Christ is to be his literal descendant.* This is interesting in the context of the question Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe recently answered about genealogy (Board Question #55208). Which reminds me, these same missionaries also believed that Jesus was a polygamist, married to the sisters Mary and Martha, as well as Mary Magdalen.

*In fact, there's a huge book in the BYU Bookstore arguing this very topic, but with several chapters on Arthurian legend, the Fisher King, the Merovingians, and the Knights Templar. And I wouldn't be surprised if it said something about the Pyramid of Cheops, too.

Re: Physical relations with Mary. I actually heard this one from my parents and from several seminary teachers before I ever heard any Antis spouting it. I had my own reasons for disbelieving it, but then Stephen Robinson flat-out denounced it in his New Testament class and informed us that when he was Chair of the Department of Ancient Scripture, the Brethren had him fire several professors who insisted on teaching that idea. Sounds pretty definitive to me, but there are still some BYU Religion professors (such as the vaunted Brother Bott) who still hint at it and wink at their students, but don't say it flat-out.

Re: 'Africans' in the Preexistence. I'm sure that was part of it. But in my mission there was actually a document written by a mission president in the Scandinavian countries (at least) several decades ago (but probably in the first half of the 20th century) that claimed that in the preexistence our spirits achieved a telestial, a terrestrial, or a celestial glory. Some spirits followed Satan and became sons of Perdition. The rest were sent to Earth for their final test to solidify their place in one of the three kingdoms (this being our last chance to move up or down). Those who'd achieved a celestial glory were born through the lineage of Shem (Near Easterners, Native Amerindians, and Polynesians). Those who'd achieved a terrestrial glory were born through the lineage of Japheth (Europeans and Asians). Those who'd achieved a telestial glory were born through the lineage of Ham (Africans) and also voluntarily opted out of receiving the priesthood. Like I said, absolute bunk.

How does the saying go? "the church must be true, else the missionaries would have killed it long ago"?

Touché. Its sad that these heretical ideas came from documents written by non-General Authorities. In fact, in Cleon Skousen's article that circulated in my mission, it said in the first pages, "these are truths that have been lost in the modern Church." (!) Then why is he the only one talking about them, and not the General Authorities? Dangerous ground, my friend.

[vorpal blade]

I wish I knew the answer to this one.

Way back in 1855 Elder Orson Pratt had a few words to say that seem to me to relate to the topic. As I understand it, it isn't exactly that the elementary particles have in themselves the power to choose, but particles of the Holy Spirit are in every particle of the universe, and due to the unity of the Spirit these spirit particles control the obedience of particles to what we call the laws of nature. Here is an extract from this discourse by Elder Orson Pratt, an apostle, delivered in the open air on the Temple Block, Great Salt Lake City, February 18, 1855. From the Journal of Discourses, volume 2, pp 338-340. The talk was entitled "THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE GODHEAD."

This Holy Spirit is all−wise, and in many of its attributes much like the Father and Son, and acts in concert with them. It governs and controls all things, and from this some might infer that it has the same knowledge and power as the Father and Son have.

I will tell you some of the knowledge that this Holy Spirit has; it controls all the laws that you see existing around you in the variations of the weather and the changes of the seasons, and all those phenomena that you behold, and that you call the laws of nature; all these are nothing more nor less than the workings of this all−wise Spirit.

You see a stone or other substances fall to the ground, and you ask, What makes them fall, and what controls them? Why will they not rise? Has any person ever found out the cause of this? No; even Sir Isaac Newton's principles of gravitation have failed to show it; as learned a man as he was, he has only given us an index or key to the effects, but not the cause of those effects. He has taken great pains to show us that when anything falls to the ground, it is the effect of the law of universal gravitation; but he himself declares that the law gives no indication of the cause; he makes this declaration in his writings.

If, then, he knew nothing about the cause of stones falling, and if no other persons know, the inquiry may still with propriety be made − what is the cause of stones or any other substances, when hurled into the air, falling to the earth? This is one of the mysteries of nature not yet discovered, unless we can attribute it to the Holy Spirit's governing and controlling all things. But is the Holy Spirit in the stone, says the inquirer? and is it that which causes it to fall to the ground, instead of going upward, or instead of going in a horizontal direction? This Spirit is in all things, governing and controlling them according to the eternal decrees of the Almighty. "How do you prove it," says one? I will prove it by quoting a revelation where it says, "He is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made. As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made. And the earth also, and the power thereof; even the earth upon which you stand."

"And the light which now shineth," meaning the light of the sun, "which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understanding; which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God, to fill the immensity of space the light which is in all things − which giveth life to all things − which is the law by which all things are governed: even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things."

This light, then, recollect, is so universally diffused, that it giveth light to all things. This is the same light that governs all things, and it is called the "power of God." And this, in connection with another passage in the same revelation, clearly sets forth the doctrine I have presented before you; the passage says that "light cleaveth to light." You all recollect the paragraph. The revelation goes on to say that "God, who sitteth upon his throne, governeth and executeth all things; he comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things; and all things are by him and of him, even God, for ever and ever."

Well, then, shall we say, when God, or His Holy Spirit, which in many revelations is called God, is through all things, being universally diffused, and in and round about all things, that it is not in a stone when it falls to the ground? No; we will not exclude it from anything that exists, for if we exclude that Spirit from one substance, we might as well exclude it, or attempt to exclude it, from all matter. If God be in all things, He is in the stone. If we were to take the wings of the morning and fly to the uttermost parts of the earth, God is there; or if we make our bed in hell, He is there; and that Spirit is there, not in suffering, but executing the decrees of the Almighty.

All those vast bodies which we behold traversing space, are governed and controlled by the same Spirit. If each of them, or the Holy Spirit diffused through them, did not know enough of those universal laws by which all worlds and all matter are kept in order, they might frequently come in contact with each other, as the orbits of many of them intersect each other in performing their revolutions. Even the stone that is thrown into the air does not go at random, but its path is marked out systematically; according to certain laws and conditions, it always falls to the ground.

Why did the axe rise to the top of the water when commanded by Elisha the Prophet? I will tell you how Elisha made it come up to the surface of the water. The spirit or power that caused the piece of iron to sink, was used to bring it up again, for it required the same power to bring it to the top of the water that it did to take it down. The agency or power that caused the iron axe to sink when it fell into the water, is called the law of "universal gravitation." There is no attraction towards the earth, as some have supposed, but there is a gravitating power, or a power that sends everything towards the earth as soon as it is left loose in the atmosphere.

Suppose you take the spirit, which is in all things, away from the axe of which we are speaking, would the particles of iron cleave together? No, they would not; there would be no more union of the particles than there is in the atmosphere we all breathe; but it is the Spirit of God that causes the particles of iron to cleave together in the axe, and it is the same Spirit that brings it up to the water's surface, and that same Spirit causes iron to sink to the bottom of a creek or river into which it may fall; and consequently all these universal laws that appear so prominently before us from day to day are nothing more than the operations of that all−wise Spirit which we are told is "round about and in all things," and which acts according to certain laws prescribed by the Almighty.

It is this same Spirit that acts in connexion with the Father and Son in governing all things in the heavens and upon the earth, and through all the boundless extent of space. Cause this oneness, this union among the particles of the Spirit, to cease, and you would soon see all things go into confusion. Take away this Spirit, and you would immediately see some things going up, others down; some moving horizontally; one portion of the earth would divide from the other; one part would be flying here and another there. Unless there was a oneness existing in the innumerable atoms of this universal Spirit, matter would cease to move by law; but they all act in concert, and hence there is no confusion in the operations of nature or of nature's laws.

I realize that the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine, so this may or may not be doctrinally correct. So just consider it an interesting point of view. Like NerdGirl, as a scientist I also find the idea fascinating, and not necessarily in opposition to my scientific views.

[vorpal blade]

How does the saying go? "the church must be true, else the missionaries would have killed it long ago"?

Whenever I hear this saying I'm reminded of a story I read, in my youth, in the scandalous Decameron, by Giovanni Boccaccio. As I recall a devout Catholic was trying to convert a devout Jew to Catholicism. After many discussions the Jew said that he was nearly converted, but wanted to go to Rome and see the headquarters of the Church before he made his final decision. The Catholic friend tried to persuade him not to do this, knowing of the corruption and bad morals found among the priests in Rome. But the Jew could not be dissuaded. After some time the Jew returned, telling his friend that he had been converted. The Catholic friend was astounded, and asked about the corruption in Rome. The Jew replied something to the effect that the Catholic Church must be true, else the priests would have killed it long ago.

[Marduk]

Okay, let me clarify what I meant by my earlier post, since it was apparently ambiguous.

Choice presupposes the opportunity to refuse. Just like moral agency, one cannot choose good without the existence of evil. For the elements, there is no choice, because there is nothing there but to obey. They obey God because of His position in the universe. Were God to do something contrary to the established order, He would fall from that position, and the elements would no longer obey Him. But that is merely a representation of the order of the universe. And yes, I consider this a basic tenet of our faith, since were elements able to choose, it naturally follows that they might refuse to obey God, which would mean God was not omnipotent.

Also, in correction to vorpal blade's comment, everything is made spiritually before it is made physically. However, the Holy Spirit has a Spirit body, one that is not divided. He can influence things all over the universe, but he can no more scatter and control parts of him throughout the universe than you or I can.

[vorpal blade]

Also, in correction to vorpal blade's comment, everything is made spiritually before it is made physically. However, the Holy Spirit has a Spirit body, one that is not divided. He can influence things all over the universe, but he can no more scatter and control parts of him throughout the universe than you or I can.

Here is what Elder Orson Pratt said about that in the same discourse.

There is another thing upon which I will now speak, namely, the Omnipresence of God.

Every one knows that it is absurd to believe in a personage being present in two places at once. "But," says one, nothing is impossible with God." But I beg to differ with such persons, and inform them, that if the Scripture be true, there are things which are impossible with God; for it is said that it is impossible for Him to lie; and if so, it would be impossible for Him to act inconsistent with truth; He could not place His body in Europe and America at the same time, for that would be inconsistent with the simplest principles of truth.

We heard a most excellent discourse last Sunday about the angels being sent to the various nations of the earth, to superintend the affairs and destinies thereof; also about each person upon the face of the whole earth having his guardian angel from the time that he comes into the world. The Holy Spirit acts in conjunction with those angels, and in places where they cannot be, for there are a great many places where those angels cannot be present, and the Holy Spirit being omnipresent is in every place at the same moment of time, regulating the seasons, and governing the planets in their courses. There would have to be a vast number of angels to be present in every place at the same instant of time, directing the movements of each particle of matter throughout the vast extent of space; consequently this is attended to by that All−powerful Spirit that exists in inexhaustible quantities throughout the universe.

The Holy Spirit "is in all things, and round about all things," holding all things together in every place and part of the earth, and in all the vast creations of the Almighty. If you ascend into heaven, it is there: if you take the wings of the morning and fly to the uttermost parts of the earth, it is there; if you go to the depths of hell, it is there, not suffering, but performing the works of His justice upon the ungodly. Go where you will, through endless space, and you will find the Spirit there, and consequently, when we speak of the omnipresence of God, we have reference to His Spirit, and not to His person. But why is this called the omnipresence of God? Simply because this Spirit possesses the same knowledge that dwells in the persons of God the Father and God the Son, hence God is there, so far as that knowledge is there.

This, then, will account for the great mystery which exists in the sectarian world about God's being everywhere present. Some of them think and believe that God is a person, and that He can be everywhere present in a personal capacity. Those who are called the wisest among the religious world have made it out, that the persons of the Father and Son can be in them and in every other place at the same instant of time. This is as gross an absurdity as it would be to say that three times three make ten, or three times one make four. But they have drawn this conclusion out of certain passages of Scripture, in order to satisfy their hearers with regard to this intricate subject. They do not wish to acknowledge their ignorance, and therefore they have given out this doctrine, which is diametrically opposed to every principle of science as well as of reason.

The plain, simple Scriptural doctrine is that God's Spirit is there, which is God in all His power and majesty. All those seemingly mysterious passages which the learned divines have applied to the person of the Father being omnipresent, have reference to that All−wise Spirit of which we have spoken. What effect will this view of the doctrine have upon persons? We answer, that a person who believes and follows this as taught in the Book of Covenants, and the Book of Mormon, will never be confounded. Such persons will be all the time thinking, "If we have anything to do, God is in that thing, and is the law and power by which all things that surround us are governed and kept in such perfect order." What influence will this have over a man who believes it? It will put him more upon his guard, far more than he otherwise would be; for God cannot be in this board, or in each blade of grass in person, but when we know that the Holy Spirit is everywhere present, being combined with all matter, then we have a correct understanding. God cannot be in every place without understanding our actions and our thoughts too. Do you believe that the particles of the Holy Spirit have such great knowledge? How much knowledge will they require to enable them to overlook and superintend all the works of God? They will require knowledge infinitely greater than ever we thought of. For instance, they must have a most perfect knowledge of the law of the inverse square of the distance pertaining to universal gravitation, or how could they know the exact distance of those innumerable worlds under their charge, so as to keep them all moving harmoniously as we see them. Particles of intelligence that can do all this, can surely know of the thoughts and intents of the heart; hence, we should always consider, when tempted to do evil, that God is round about us with all the knowledge that governs and controls nature. You see, then, that this view of the subject is calculated to have an effect that will be profitable to us all.

[NerdGirl]

I have more thoughts, and will probably be back on Saturday to share them.