#55632, politically charged questions

What do you think about the latest hot topic from the 100 Hour Board? Speak your piece here!

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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

Frankly, yes, I believe my side has moral superiority. Don’t you honestly think your side has moral superiority?

You accuse me of engaging in outright lies in what I’ve suggested Barack Obama is for, without even asking me for my explanations. You have also accused me of speaking in platitudes, listing generalizations that are "so broad as to be rendered meaningless." How can I be lying about Barack Obama and at the same time be talking in meaningless trite and obvious overgeneralizations that could apply to anyone? Which is it?

There is a difference in what I do, attack the ideas you present, and attacking you personally. If you are referring to what my boss said, then I will remind you that you yourself admitted that you were speaking in hyperbole when you said Jesus would support the same ideas that you now claim are outright (and apparently evil) lies about Barack Obama. Now that you've confessed your blasphemy perhaps you no longer need to talk to your bishop. :)

Oh, and isn’t saying I’m lying a personal attack? Which is a worse personal attack in your book, calling someone a liar, or suggesting with a smile that they need to talk to their bishop? If there is something else you felt was a personal attack please let me know specifically what you are talking about.

I do think that your personal beliefs are at odds with what the Church teaches. That's the only reason why I disagree with your views.

I would be interested in reading how my over generalized platitudes have been construed by you to misrepresent or at least overstate our current president’s leadership style. It is possible we aren’t talking about the same thing.

As far as Glenn Beck is concerned, let me remind you of the quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson that I currently have on each post.

So calm down, Marduk, I’m not attacking you personally.
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Marduk
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Post by Marduk »

Yes, I believe my side to be morally more equitable. However, I wouldn't be so callous as to claim it the teachings of the church, when the church has remained silent on most of the issues you discuss. I would remind you that only the prophet, speaking as prophet, has the ability to declare doctrine for this dispensation. Even, for example, the church's recent position on gay marriage, was a matter of church policy, not doctrine. An important yet often difficult to grasp distinction.

Wait, aren't you yourself arguing that seemingly contradictory comparisons can yet both be accurate? Applying to the given situation, you've boiled down and abstracted certain talking points and proposed legislation so much that it has no bearing on the original discussion. In so doing, you've entirely misrepresented the truth. Hence it is both a lie and meaningless, although far from harmless.

And no, saying that a person has lied is not necessarily a personal attack. I will admit I could have been more tactful in how I said it. Misrepresented the truth, perhaps? Misspoke? Mistaken? Take your pick. Suggesting (even with a smile) that someone is guilty of such moral misconduct as to necessitate discussion with an ecclesiastical leader is far more egregious, in my opinion. Maybe it isn't in yours, hence I bear no ill will about it.

Again, you may believe that what I say is at odds with the church teaches. I imagine you also might be shocked to learn that there are even general authorities who are democrats. They may have even (gasp!) voted for Obama. I think what agitates me so much about your arguments isn't so much that you genuinely believe them, it is that you have the tamarity to claim the backing of God.

But you are right about one thing, and that is that we'll have to get down to the nitty gritty to get anything done. So if you'll give me some time, we'll start a discussion, point by point, of your "quiz".

Glenn Beck is just another talking head, just like any other talking head. It makes me anxious, however, that folks might see his religion and think his personal perspective somehow the viewpoint of the church at large. However, he has little to do with the discussion, so lets leave him alone.

Heh. I am calm. It would take far more than you could ever do to make me upset or angry. But just out of curiosity, when has telling someone to calm down ever helped them calm down?
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Post by Tao »

Marduk wrote: It would take far more than you could ever do to make me upset or angry. But just out of curiosity, when has telling someone to calm down ever helped them calm down?
Ever done any negotiation? You'll quickly find that when people start thinking with the wrong brains, it is usually their realization of such that does the most to snap them out of it. Sadly, in the violence of the word, there is rarely a chance for this self-realization, and people tend to walk away convinced that the majority of fault lay with the other guy and anything else was self-defense.

I'd highly recommend some of the tenants of the Baha'i faith concerning this matter.

I could continue, but it is late, and my posts tend to become dissertations if I do not restrain myself.
He who knows others is clever;
He who knows himself has discernment.
He who overcomes others has force;
He who overcomes himself is strong. 33:1-4
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vorpal blade
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Post by vorpal blade »

You may recall the controversy between the Big-endians and the Little-endians in that great satirical work “Gulliver’s Travels” written by Jonathan Swift. According to the story hundreds of books had been written on the controversy, religion had been invoked, and eleven thousand persons had suffered death rather than submit to the Little-endian law. Wars had been fought between the empires of Lilliput and Blefuscu (which supported the Big-endians), and at least thirty thousand of Lilliput’s best seamen and soldiers died in the conflicts, with as many losses on the side of the Blefuscu empire.

And what was the important distinction between the Big-endians and the Little-endians? Merely that the emperor of Lilliput made a law, after his son cut his finger breaking his egg at the big end, that everyone must now break their eggs at the little end. Changing the ancient practice of egg breaking so outraged the citizens that they were willing to sacrifice their lives for the cause of this “fundamental doctrine.” The books of the Big-endians were banned in Lilliput, and the whole party was forbidden by law of holding employments. There had been six rebellions over this issue, with much of the trouble fomented by the rival empire of Blefuscu.

A satire is an exaggeration; but in the best satires there is always some truth. We can see that the conflict in Lilliput between the Big-endians and the Little-endians was petty and trivial, but do we magnify some minor differences in politics today and think the two parties are “fundamentally incompatible?”

On the other hand, some differences are important. You will also remember that before the war in heaven the revolutionary Satan came before God and said “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” Doesn’t that sound like a wonderful promise, to redeem all mankind? Doesn’t that sound “morally more equitable” than the plan Jesus supported? I think it does.

Satan’s plan was rejected because this was rebellion against God, Satan “sought to destroy the agency of man,” and Satan wanted God’s power. The differences between God’s plan and Satan’s plan may seem to be trivial in the minds of some people, but it actually is a big deal.

I have friends that I respect who are Democrats, as well as those who are Republicans. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that some General Authorities are Democrats. It would surprise me to learn that any General Authorities are Communists or Nazis, or had sympathies in that direction. To me the differences between Communism and Nazism are Big-endian versus the Little-endian differences, and Communism and Nazism are similar versions of Satan’s plan. I haven’t strayed from the original discussion, though you may not be able to see the connection yet. I hope to make that connection clear in another post.
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Post by vorpal blade »

There is a reason why a person can appear to be simultaneously a Communist and a Nazi. The two ideologies have a common ancestor in the French Revolution. They are different, but they are cousins. To show this I will first talk about their philosophical roots in the French Revolution, then show that Communism and Nazism are not all that different, and finally discuss some reasons some people may think Hitler was on the right. I take much of this from Jonah Goldberg’s book Liberal Fascism (New York: Doubleday, 2007).

I. Roots in the French Revolution.

The French Revolution was the first totalitarian revolution, at least in modern times. It was also a nationalist-populist uprising. It was led by the elite with an agenda to replace Christianity with a political people-centered religion.
Robespierre wrote: The people is always worth more than individuals...The people is sublime, but individuals are weak.
Gertrude Himmelfarb, “The Idea of Compassion: The British vs. the French Enlightenment,” Public Interest, no. 145 (Fall 2001)

Many of Robespierre's ideas came from Rousseau, with his theory of the general will. In Rousseau's theory you could follow the general will and be “free” and “virtuous,” or you could defy the general will and be a criminal, fool, or heretic. Rousseau believed in “forcing men to be free.” And he believed that you could have blind faith and trust in this general will.
Rousseau wrote:[Voting in elections, representative bodies, and so forth are] hardly ever necessary where the government is well-intentioned. For the rulers well know that the general will is always on the side which is most favorable to the public interest, that is to say, the most equitable: so that it is needful only to act justly to be certain of following the general will.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract and Discourses, trans. G.D.H. Cole (New York: Dutton, 1950), p. 297

Robespierre realized that for the French Revolution to succeed he had to make the people believe that God spoke through him and the general will. In this way he hoped to realize the dream that later motivated the Nazis and Communists; the creation of “New Men.”
Rousseau wrote: I am convinced of the necessity of bringing about a complete regeneration, and, if I may express myself so, of creating a new people.
Himmelfarb, “Idea of Compassion.”
Tocqueville wrote: [The action-priests of the Revolution]had a fanatical faith in their vocation—that of transforming the social system, root and branch, and regenerating the whole human race.
The Old Regime and the French Revolution (New York: Anchor, 1955), p. 156.

In a totalitarian regime to make the “New Men” it is first necessary to take away agency, deliberately using terror. According to historian Marisa Linton, the French Revolution set the precedent.
Marisa Linton wrote: For the first time in history terror became an official government policy, with the stated aim to use violence in order to achieve a higher political goal.
Marisa Linton, “Robespierre and the Terror,” History Today, Aug. 1, 2006

Twentieth-century proselytizers took up the idea of the worship of the “general will” and promoted a secular religion in which “the people” in effect worshiped themselves. See George L. Mosse, The Nationalization of the Masses: Political Symbolism and Mass Movements in Germany from the Napoleonic Wars Through the Third Reich (New York: Fertig, 2001); George L. Mosse, “Fascism and the French Revolution,” Journal of Contemporary History 24, no. 1 (Jan. 1989), pp. 5-26.

Johann Gottfried von Herder built on Rousseau's ideas to claim that the general will was unique to each nation, or specific Volk. This lead to the idea of superiority of races, nations, and cultures. Ideas which lead to Nazism and fascism.

II. Nazism and Communism are not all that different

National Socialism (Nazism) came before Hitler. According to historian Robert O. Paxton the first example of “national socialism” was the Cercle Proudhon in France in 1911. This club of intellectuals tried to “unite nationalists and left-wing anti-democrats” against “Jewish capitalism.” See Georges Valois, the founder, wanted to convert the working class away from Marxist internationalism and toward a nation-based socialism. Robert O. Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism (New York: Vintage, 2004), p.48

The Nazis came to power exploiting anti-capitalist rhetoric.

In general, the left is the party of change while the right is the party of status quo. But Hitler was a thorough revolutionary. This is considered heresy to the Marxist and German historians since for those on the left revolution is considered a good thing. So how can Hitler be bad and revolutions good if Hitler is allowed to be thought of as a revolutionary? Yet Hitler despised the bourgeoisie, traditionalists, aristocrats, monarchists, and all believers in the established order.
John Lukacs wrote: [Hitler] had become repelled by the traditionalist values of the German bourgeoisie
John Lukacs, The Hitler of History (New York: Vintage, 1997), p. 84.

Hitler viewed the bourgeoisie just like Lenin did.
Hitler wrote:Let us not deceive ourselves, our bourgeoisie is already worthless for any noble human endeavor.
David Schoenbaum, Hitler’s Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939 (New York: Norton, 1980), p. 19.

We learn much about Nazism when we examine Hitler’s early life experiences and his rise to power. I’ll skip over much of that. Suffice it to say that after recovering from his war (World War I) wounds Hitler found a job in Munich monitoring subversive organizations. One of these organizations was the German Worker's Party. At that time a “Worker’s Party” was understood as being socialist. When Hitler attended a party meeting in September 1919 the speaker was Gottfried Feder speaking about “How and by what means Is Capitalism to Be Eliminated?” Hitler joined the party and within a year was leading it.

In 1920 the Nazi Party issued its “unalterable” and “eternal” party platform, co-written by Hitler and Anton Drexler. The overarching principle was that the “common good must come before self-interest.” The platform appealed to socialistic and populist economics, abolition of income from interest, shared profits with labor, expanded old-age pensions, “communalization of department stores,” the execution of “usurers” regardless of race, outlawing of child labor, universal education, guaranteed employment, the expropriation of land without compensation, the nationalization of industry, the expansion of health services, and the abolition of market-based lending. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/1708-ps.asp These are anything but “right-wing” principles. I incorporated many of these ideas in my quiz.

The divide between the National Socialists and the Communists wasn't about economics, but over nationalism. Hitler hated the Marxist idea that “workingmen have no country.”

In Hitler's Mein Kampf a chapter is devoted to the Nazi's use of socialist and communist imagery, rhetoric, and ideas to draw in liberals and communists. As an example, the Nazis used the color red in posters and in their flag. The color red was firmly established in the minds of the people as associated with Bolshevism and socialism.
Hitler wrote: We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation...so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings...so that in this way we got a chance to talking to the people....In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of Aryan man.
Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 484, 496-97.

Even after Hitler seized power he continued to emphasize his “working-class” background. At Nazi rallies they never allowed an aristocrat to speak unless he was balanced out with some working-class farmer. See Schoenbaum, Hitler’s Social Revolution, p. 59; Burleigh, Third Reich, p. 105.

Rather than polar opposites communism and Nazism are kindred spirits. Communists champion class and Nazis race.
Richard Pipes wrote:Bolshevism and Fascism were heresies of socialism.
Richard Pipes, Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime, 1919-1924 (New York: Vintage, 1995), p. 253.

Hitler had no problem with the economic doctrine of communism or the need to destroy capitalism and the bourgeoisie. He hated communism because of his paranoid conviction that the communists were a foreign, Jewish conspiracy, as he says repeatedly in Mein Kampf. It is ironic that actually the Soviet Union was also, in effect, officially anti-Semitic.

III “Hitler on the right” is communist propaganda.

The typical story given today is that Hitler and the Nazis rose to power over popular resentment of Germany being “stabbed in the back” by communists, Jews, and weak politicians. Supposedly the Nazis worked with capitalists and industrialists who were eager to defeat the Red menace. Supposedly they staged a “reactionary” coup by mobilizing “Conservative,” i.e. racist and religious elements in German society. Once in power “state capitalism” was installed as a reward to the industrialists.

There is some truth in that, but effective lies are often sprinkled with actual truth. It is a distortion of the truth, grossly exaggerating the role of the industrialists and conservatives, and minimizing the very large and important socialist aspects of Nazism. The point has been to cast Nazism as the polar opposite of communism.

It was thought that because the Communists and Nazis fought it out in the streets they must have had significant differences of opinion. As we have seen however, the truth is that they had much in common. Hitler’s strategy was to first eliminate the left, by incorporating them into his own party, as much as possible. This was the logical point to begin, as both communism and Nazism appealed to the same kinds of people, and talked and thought in the same way. It was a case of two dogs fighting over the same bone.

For Stalin, and the left, it is terribly inconvenient to think that the voice of the “severely disenfranchised people”—the poor, the powerless, the exploited—could come from the Nazis. Since Marxist theory requires these people to be left-wingers then the fact that much of the support for the Nazis came from the working and lower classes has been largely erased from our history. But the fact is that Nazism was a popular movement with support from all segments of the society. The idea that others were pulling Hitler’s strings has been discredited. Germany industry did come around to support Hitler, but only after Hitler showed them that it would be wise to not get in his way. It was opportunism, not ideology which brought them around.

It is also claimed that Hitler’s racism, his alleged status as a capitalist, and his hatred of Bolshevism make Hitler a right-winger. It is, of course, a myth that only right-wingers are racists. We have seen plenty of left-wing racist governments in the last century. Hitler hated capitalists as well, and in his mind capitalists and communists were fronts for the Jewish menace. It was not a hatred of the left-wing.

The Nazis’ ultimate aim was to transcend both left and right, advancing the “Third Way.” In practice they first needed to divide and conquer, first replacing the left.

The Nazis campaigned as socialists. They were also nationalists, which in the 1920s and 1930s was considered a right-wing position. At the time the Soviet Union defined “internationalism” as the left, and all nationalists must then “logically” be right-wing.

Whenever Stalin wanted to get rid of someone in the party for deviating from the Soviet line he accused them of being rightist—or, right-wing socialists. Any opposition to Stalin was considered rightist. Anyone the international left wished to delegitimize they called a Nazi. Now Nazism has come to mean “ultimate evil” without looking at the facts or reason. We in the west have been following the propaganda-defined terms ever since Stalin.
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Post by Marduk »

My apologies for leaving this thread without response for so long. Let's deconstruct your arguments.

I. roots on the french revolution. I actually agree with much of this. We could take it perhaps quite a bit further back than that, to Machiavelli, or even earlier, but it is, at best, tangential to our purposes here. So I'll let your argument be for the moment.
II. Nazism and Communism are not all that different. I'm assuming, for the sake of the argument, that we're talking soviet bloc communism. I know this is a term you have previously objected to, but it is entirely different from Chinese communism, Cuban communism, or any of the plethora of theoretical ideas that fall out from Marxist writings, most of which have never been instantiated. I will also assume by Nazism you mean Hitler Nazism, which is far less of a stretch, but I include here only to affirm that we are on the same ground. You make the point that they were both revolutionary ideologies. I grant this, but no historian is so myopic as to suggest that revolutionary ideas are always beneficial. I'm sure we could list dozens of revolutionaries, many who you would agree had a beneficial effect on mankind, as well as ones you would agree have been more misanthropic. You then connect Hitler's expression of the upper class with a Communist one. Here it becomes untenable. Whereas a communist may argue that the bourgeoisie are detrimental by virtue of their status as such, Hitler argued that this had caused them to be worthless for any other position. That argument goes further than Marx contended, even at his most pessimistic. You then discuss the divide between them as being over nationalism. You do well to recognize that Marxism is by nature resistant to association with any specific governmental structures. Nazism requires it.
III. "Hitler on the right". I do not doubt that Hitler is far left of you. He is, however, to the right of me. The key to understanding Hitler and Nazism, is to understand that he was more than willing to make concessions that didn't affect his overall vision, in order to gain concensus. Here we see satan. The platform becomes malleable, the ideas liquid, in order for those who are willing to see in it what they want, and hence wrap the flaxen cords around their necks. In looking at a left/right economic scale, however, it needs to be generous enough to contain within it all the spectrum of economic thought. So when we say Hitler is on the right, in this instance, we do not contend that he is part of the Ayn Randian right, merely that he is right of Stalin, Lenin, Castro, etc. (His relation to Mao seems to be a little more hazy. They are certainly closer than the others.)

Remember in your analysis of their relation (and certainly there are some comparisons to be made) to try as best you can to seperate their economic ideologies from their political and moral ideologies. An example of this might be that HItler was anti-semitic as a result of Arian moral schemas, and Stalin's was more a result of paranoia. However, whereas racial superiority is intrinsic to Nazism, it is just a common corollation in Communism.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Just a few quick notes, as I don’t have time to respond more (for a few days).

I hope to later bring back the French Revolution into the question.

I’m trying to stay on the topic of the differences or similarities between Hitler’s Nazism and Soviet Block communism.

I don’t say that leftist historians claim that all revolutionary ideas are beneficial, merely that all revolutions serve a useful purpose in the Hegelian wheel of history to move things forward.

I’d have to do more research to decide whether I agree with you on the similarities or differences about the bourgeoisie between Hitler and Stalin. What I said is what Jonah Goldberg said.

I took the political compass test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/test), using what I know of Hitler, to see where he would land in that test. He came out as -8.5 on the left, and +5.28 on the authoritarian side. If you believe the test. However, the creators of the test believe Hitler should be about +1 on the right, and + 10 on the authoritarian side. They put Stalin at about -10 to the left and +10 authoritarian. I would be interested to know where exactly you would put Hitler. Saying to the right of you and left of me is imprecise.

I agree that Hitler was an opportunist and mostly seemed to use ideas rather than believe in them, but he did have some core beliefs.
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Post by Marduk »

vorpal blade wrote: I don’t say that leftist historians claim that all revolutionary ideas are beneficial, merely that all revolutions serve a useful purpose in the Hegelian wheel of history to move things forward.
I want to give you time to fully respond, but I just wanted to interject a quick thought here. Unless your argument is a tautological one (in which case, it doesn't merit addressing, however, I don't think that was your intent) I have to take issue. Hegel would have asserted that all revolutionary ideas are beneficial, because the conflict that arises from them, as substrate parts of the unified whole, invigorates a synthesis which is by nature better than the previous state. Taking such a dialectical approach, however, weakens the discussion inherently, since such would take a more holistic approach at the structure of knowledge, and refutes the very nature of a dichotomizing schema.

Our purpose here (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is to what extent the realized effects in either of these ideologies are similar, and to what extent those are driven by similar principles within the ideologies. (A contention which I may make at a later juncture is that, even if we concede similar states of being brought about by both, that certainly does not mean that both contain similar enough dogmas to conclude similar treatment within our own cognition. I don't know that this is necessarily the case, either, but should we continue, I'll express my thoughts on it later.)

Lastly, I would assert that a Hegelian perspective of history (which certainly has merit, given the pervasiveness, at least within the academic world, of his work, at that time in Europe) must conclude that we need not generalize our view of the nature of conflict of ideas to actual military and political conflict. These may or may not, depending on the extent to which they are driven by reason and logic, further the synthesizing process of those intellectual schemas, and hence can be praised or demonized according to that extent, since such a perspective must at least value the conflict of ideas.
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Post by vorpal blade »

Let me explain where I am going with this. I believe that President Barack Obama is the recipient of a legacy of political thought. There are a number of elements to his philosophy. I believe Islamism, modern liberalism, classical liberalism, Jeffersonian individualism, and communism are important components to President Obama’s intellectual heritage. This heritage has come from his parents, his teachers, and his peers that he chose to associate with in his formative and college years. He has assimilated these thoughts into his own unique philosophy, much as the rest of us do with whatever we have been exposed to.

I believe that modern liberalism is a descendent of progressivism. Progressivism is a form of fascism having common roots with communism in the French Revolution. Nazism is another form of fascism. Fascism has many faces. American progressivism is not identical to any other fascism worldwide, having been modified in America with other, kinder, elements. American Progressivism has been described as “smiley-face fascism.”

The reason President Obama appears one day to be like Hitler, and another day like Stalin, is that he has inherited in a measure both of these ideologies and totalitarian impulses. Some people think that Hitler and Stalin are polar opposites and a person couldn’t possibly have both in the same person. I am trying to show that Hitler and Stalin are enough alike in thinking that it is entirely possible to be like both. Of course, I do not mean to imply that President Obama is an evil racist like Hitler, or a lethal megalomaniac like Stalin. That would be unkind and untrue. I am just giving a warming of where President Obama is coming from with his agenda and proposals.
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