Random Maids a'Milking!

[thebigcheese]

Ever have a dream that makes your emotions blow a fuse?

The other day, I had a dream where I found out that one of my friends actually hated my guts. After I finally woke up, I had to fight back tears for a good 30 minutes. That's a terrible way to start the day.

[Katya]

Honestly? I'd be glad to hear it. Granted, I'd expect to see it taper off if we were engaged, but shy of that it'd be good to know.

OK, so you do recognize "engaged" as being a state that merits different behavior than "not engaged," but you don't recognize any particular relationship statuses below that?

I'd say it is a given that some are easier to love than others, and some are more prone to find themselves (or claim to do so) in such a state, but to actually cause someone else to feel or stop feeling love? I'm not convinced it is possible.

The point of a DTR is not to make someone love you, it's to clarify social expectations.

[C is for]

Ever have a dream that makes your emotions blow a fuse?

The other day, I had a dream where I found out that one of my friends actually hated my guts. After I finally woke up, I had to fight back tears for a good 30 minutes. That's a terrible way to start the day.

Related Board Question

YES. Once I liked this guy and dreamed that he was so busy with some other girl he couldn't rescue me from the middle of nowhere (north Provo, if there are any cornfields there). The girl had to answer his phone and say that he was too busy. I woke up so mad at him. It took me all day, and telling him about the dream (not that it was him), to get over that.

come to think of it, that's happened more than once. Different guys. Different dreams. But waking up with a grudge against them? Oh yeah.

(There have also been the occasional really good dream that make me wake up and feel all happy and fuzzy toward someone, even though they're not nearly that nice in real life. Thanks, dreams.)

[vorpal blade]

On the dreams topic I am reminded of the 1968 movie "Sweet November." In this movie the heroine (who I thought when I first watched this movie in 1975 was slightly wacky) wakes up from a dream and is mad at her "boyfriend" (current lover) for what he did in the dream. He tells her that this is illogical, but she replies that what a person does in her dream is what they would really do in real life if given the chance.

In regard to relationships I think some interesting points have been made. In thinking about this a little more, I decided that guys think about relationships in a different way from the way girls do, for the most part. Maybe it is just me, but I don't think I'm different from other guys. We recognize that some relationships have been defined by others; wife, mother, daughter, sister, boss, co-worker, and that kind of thing. We don't decide how to define the relationship, at least we don't think we do. Society or our cultural or religious upbringing decides that for us. Clarification does not seem needed, and if discussed would seem to be for the purpose of evading some sort of responsibility, or enforcing it.

Other than these culturally defined relationships we don't think about relationships. Is he or she a friend or an acquaintance? It isn't defined. It isn't on our radar. We are not thinking about it. If we are pressed for an answer we might say one or the other, but we feel uncomfortable about it. We know that we are acquainted with this person. Do we expect them to date others? That isn't our decision, and unless we are the controlling kind of men we don't want to dictate our expectation of them. They can date others if they want to, or not. That is up to them to decide. Do we expect to be able to kiss them when we want to? We might want to kiss them, but kissing them is a decision them make for us at the moment we might make an attempt. Might we date others? If we feel like it, unless for some reason a promise has been extracted from us to not date others. Are we boyfriend/girlfriend? What does that really mean, anyway? We like her and may have said so. She likes us and may have said so. Why is more committment needed? What is more "clarity" when it is the nature of human interaction to be milky, not crystal clear?

I'm always a little shocked and put on the defensive when asked "What is the nature of your relationship with so and so?" I don't know. I can tell you how I react around that person, and how they seem to react around me. But putting a name on it, setting up rules and boundaries and formulas and expectations and regulations seems to unneccesarily bind you down. When you take on a certain step, such as getting engaged, there are certain rules understood, and you can ask for clarification on those rules. But before that step is taken it just seems to me that you are asking too much. Am I interested? Well, I wouldn't be dating you if I weren't. Is this going to lead to marriage? How do I know?

[Dragon Lady]

In high school, my best friend had a dream about me where I did something to make her very, very angry. I don't even remember what it was. She told me about it as soon as she saw me at school, and continued to be very angry at me all day, even though she knew it was stupid. I thought it was kind of funny, so I wasn't offended at all, but it was a bit annoying at times when she'd say, "Well, if you hadn't done X, maybe I'd _____" And I'd have to remind her that I didn't do X. I remember arguing about it with her at Maverik after school and, if you'd believe it, the cashier was on her side! [sigh] But a good night's sleep in which I wasn't the bad guy cured all. Thank goodness.

[TheAnswerIs42]

This happens to me all the time, and my husband loves to make fun of me for it. But if he does something mean to me in my dream, I wake up very mad at him and often can't even figure out why.

My favorite is when I have a dream where he is mean to me, and wake up furious, but he has a wonderful dream about me and wants to cuddle up with me when he wakes up. Then he figures out I had a bad dream again and laughs at me. Because I tried to bat him away and growl at him for no reason. I'm just glad he thinks it is funny . . .

[thebigcheese]

Heh. While we were engaged, there was a period of time when I would wake up mad at my fiance nearly every day. It was bizarre...and really hard to deal with. But it doesn't really happen to me anymore. Thank goodness!

[Dragon Lady]

My favorite is when I have a dream where he is mean to me, and wake up furious, but he has a wonderful dream about me and wants to cuddle up with me when he wakes up. Then he figures out I had a bad dream again and laughs at me. Because I tried to bat him away and growl at him for no reason. I'm just glad he thinks it is funny . . .

This totally happened to me once! I woke up furious with Yellow and he woke up wanting to cuddle and it made me so mad that he'd want to cuddle after all he did in my dream! Except, I was only half awake, so I didn't realize I was being unreasonable for a little while…. oops? haha. But he laughed once I finally woke up enough to explain myself.

[Emiliana]

I had a dream once that I completely chewed out this guy. I don't know what he'd done, but I was really mad. In real life, I hardly knew him -- we were in the same major and had a few classes together -- so it was really weird for awhile when he'd talk to me after class and I couldn't figure out why I was upset with him.

On definition in relationships, I think Vorpal might be onto something about the difference in the way genders view things. I do like to know where I stand in all my relationships, even ones that are completely platonic. My dad told me once, when I was having difficulty with a guy who seemed less committed to me than I was to him, that men tend to be a lot less all-or-nothing than women. Most women, if they're going to invest in a relationship at all, have more of an expectation that things will eventually become serious. Most men are more content to wait and see what happens. I've turned down many more dates than I've accepted, and I've never in my life agreed to go on a date with a guy the first time he asked. If he's not discouraged the first time I turn him down, that's reasonable evidence that he has more than just a passing interest.

But in this particular case, I have practical reasons for wanting to figure things out in addition to my dislike of relational ambiguity.... My commitment in Uganda will be up in five months, and I need to decide whether to commit to another school year, move back to the States and get a real job, or do something else entirely. If things progress with this young man, I may well decide to move closer to him. I'm not ready to make a commitment like that right now, regardless of where he stands, but I would like to be moving towards a decision and this is a factor I want to consider.

[Unit of Energy]

I do think that genders view relationship definition differently. Which is why at the moment how I interact with him is based on a conversation I had with his girlfriend.

[thebigcheese]

In my marriage prep class, we talked about how dating has changed a lot over the years, so perhaps that's a factor with Vorpal as well.

Nowadays, dating tends to get serious a lot quicker than it did a generation ago...which is why so many girls turn down first or second dates. Even at that early stage, if she's not interested, the girl feels like accepting the invitation = leading him on. So I think this is one of the reasons why dating is so complicated now. If you've been on three or more dates, you've already implied some sort of continuing commitment. So does that mean you're expected to turn down dates from others? Well, you don't know unless you talk about it, hence the DTR. "Um, are we exclusive now?"

[Tao]

Heh, interesting. I'd be of the opinion that if you turn someone down w/o having something else scheduled, then you're not interested and I'll not bother you with a second request.

OK, so you do recognize "engaged" as being a state that merits different behavior than "not engaged," but you don't recognize any particular relationship statuses below that?

Not particularly, no. As has been mentioned, each person seems to have a different idea of what each status is, so making a verbal declaration seems a bit less-effective. I usually go along with whatever my counterpart feels is appropriate. At one point I'd been dating a girl for a number of months before I became aware of it. Did the awareness change my actions at all? Not really. I continued at my pace and she at hers and we muddled along.

The point of a DTR is not to make someone love you, it's to clarify social expectations.

And perhaps that's part of the disparate perceptions. I really don't have any social expectations to clarify. "Does it make you happy? Act accordingly." Not much by way of sociality, expectation nor clarification needing to be involved.

Although with the way the dream discussion has been going, perhaps it is best I just stay out of the relationship field altogether. I'm not sure how I would handle that.

[Katya]

OK, so you do recognize "engaged" as being a state that merits different behavior than "not engaged," but you don't recognize any particular relationship statuses below that?

Not particularly, no. As has been mentioned, each person seems to have a different idea of what each status is, so making a verbal declaration seems a bit less-effective. I usually go along with whatever my counterpart feels is appropriate. At one point I'd been dating a girl for a number of months before I became aware of it. Did the awareness change my actions at all? Not really. I continued at my pace and she at hers and we muddled along.

Hmm. Let me see if I can try yet another tack. Define "cheating" in the sense of "cheating on another person."

[Tao]

Hmm. Let me see if I can try yet another tack. Define "cheating" in the sense of "cheating on another person."

I'd say to break one's vows of fidelity, but that really only applies to marriage. Etymology isn't helping me out any, as it offers "[to] be sexually unfaithful". In a dating atmosphere, I'm sure what you're driving at is when someone feels slighted when their significant other is seen with another. As I would say that it is impossible for someone to both a) be in love (ie. desire someone else's happiness) and b) feel bad when they find it, I'm not sure that the term fits. Perhaps it would work if somehow you knew that the action they are seeking is assuredly counter-productive to their happiness, but I've never been in such a situation, so don't have much to say there.

I recently had a discussion with a friend along similar lines, where we came to the conclusion that to deprive someone of their happiness is really (one of) the biggest cheats common today. And sadly, that person is all too often the self, as someone short-changes their future for the now.

[Katya]

Hmm. Let me see if I can try yet another tack. Define "cheating" in the sense of "cheating on another person."

I'd say to break one's vows of fidelity, but that really only applies to marriage. Etymology isn't helping me out any, as it offers "[to] be sexually unfaithful". In a dating atmosphere, I'm sure what you're driving at is when someone feels slighted when their significant other is seen with another. As I would say that it is impossible for someone to both a) be in love (ie. desire someone else's happiness) and b) feel bad when they find it, I'm not sure that the term fits. Perhaps it would work if somehow you knew that the action they are seeking is assuredly counter-productive to their happiness, but I've never been in such a situation, so don't have much to say there.

OK. If you don't believe that cheating can exist in situations short of marriage, I can see why you wouldn't see the need for DTRs.

[vorpal blade]

My favorite is when I have a dream where he is mean to me, and wake up furious, but he has a wonderful dream about me and wants to cuddle up with me when he wakes up. Then he figures out I had a bad dream again and laughs at me. Because I tried to bat him away and growl at him for no reason. I'm just glad he thinks it is funny . . .

This totally happened to me once! I woke up furious with Yellow and he woke up wanting to cuddle and it made me so mad that he'd want to cuddle after all he did in my dream! Except, I was only half awake, so I didn't realize I was being unreasonable for a little while…. oops? haha. But he laughed once I finally woke up enough to explain myself.

I may be overreacting to this, but I'd like to generalize it a bit and give one guy's opinion about it.

Guys by nature and nurture tend to react to certain painful situations by laughing as a way of showing how tough they are. But being accused unjustly and unfairly is very painful. I can't think of anything more painful than to have my amorous advances rebuffed because of something I didn't do, but she can't get out of her head that I did, for no logical reason. Is my reaction going to be to tell her how much she hurt me, and how bad I feel? No, that would only make her unhappy and hurt, and guys have an intense desire to protect from hurt the ones they love. So they may appear to have a frank, two-way open discussion about it, showing good communication skills, but in reality the guy is going to conceal his true feelings in order to protect his wife. She will never realize the depth of his pain or how he really feels about it. What she will think is that he thinks it is funny, because that is what he wants her to think. He may not even do this consciously, so ingrained is his response.

To be unfairly and unjustly accused is painful, and punishing him by withholding affection, saying angry words to belittle him just adds salt to the wounds. But the thing that hurts the most is the sense of betrayal. How could the one who loves me feel that I was the kind of evil and mean person who would do that sort of thing to her?

If this pattern persists the consequence is that the man will put up walls to shield himself from her. He will become more aloof and distant. He will want to spend less time with her. She will wonder why they seem to have grown apart, or some other woman seems more interesting to him. She won't guess the truth.

[vorpal blade]

Heh, interesting. I'd be of the opinion that if you turn someone down w/o having something else scheduled, then you're not interested and I'll not bother you with a second request.

Exactly the way I feel about it.

Although with the way the dream discussion has been going, perhaps it is best I just stay out of the relationship field altogether. I'm not sure how I would handle that.

A totally logical conclusion.

[Marduk]

I think that's possible, Vorpal, but as you point out, a bit extreme. I think the laughter may most likely mask other emotions, but as long as the actions are not based on actual malice, but a delirium induced by a bad dream that soon goes, it is easy to forgive. Just like any other sort of irrational behavior, the woman should learn to overcome (not necessarily not have bad dreams, as the road to that is considerably more nebulous, but to not let anger override love) and the man should learn to be forgiving and patient.

Just like most problems in marriage, if it is allowed to erode to the point where the two "(grow) apart," then both parties are at fault.

[Marduk]

Also, a third vote for Tao's feelings on a girl that turns down a first date.

[thebigcheese]

On an unrelated note, I totally just gagged myself. Don't throw candy/vitamins/pills into the back of your mouth. Blegh.