Congratulations?

[thebigcheese]

Question of the day:
If you are LDS and your daughter gets knocked up (on purpose) by a guy she really loves, but is not married to (with no immediate plans of getting married), how would you react in that situation? How should you react in that situation? How should your LDS friends react in that situation?

Long story short...a girl from my ward back home is going through something like that. A couple days ago, she found out that she's pregnant and posted it on Facebook. She's not active in the church anymore, but she's still connected to lots of LDS friends via Facebook. It's really interesting to see the reactions. All of the non-LDS people are like "OH MY GOSH! THAT IS SO AWESOME!" and all of the LDS people (including her mom) are like "So, when's the wedding?" with absolutely no sentiment of congratulations.

I don't really know what's appropriate to say. It was planned, so I guess congratulations might work? But on the other hand, it goes against a lot of my intuitions. Especially since her first marriage was in the temple, so that adds gravity to the situation--it seems like she's just digging herself deeper all the time. On her blog, she writes about how the "When's the wedding?" comments are really hurtful to her because they show zero compassion. She wants children. He wants children. They just don't want marriage right now because they've both been married before and had a bad experience.

Opinions?

[mic0]

If I was the mother then I would NOT post that kind of comment on her facebook. I would call her, or visit her, and talk to her about it. Even then, I would be supportive, because whether or not I like it she is having a baby and I wouldn't want to ruin my relationship with my daughter.

[thebigcheese]

On her blog, she talks about the conversation she had with her mom. Her mom basically told her, "If you were married, I would be happy. But since you're not, I'm disappointed."

[mic0]

Ouch... to me, that seems a little harsh. But we could be getting a biased view from the daughter; I know I have taken what were meant to be constructive comments as straight criticism before. I think I would still want to keep the disappointment to myself and be supportive of her unless she wanted to talk about it.

[Katya]

All of the non-LDS people are like "OH MY GOSH! THAT IS SO AWESOME!" and all of the LDS people (including her mom) are like "So, when's the wedding?" with absolutely no sentiment of congratulations.

This type of attitude is something that really pisses me off about LDS culture. It's like we have no conception of how to approach people who don't measure up to our ideals. I acknowledge that this isn't a choice I would make or one I would want my daughter to make, but when her life gets harder (either directly from this choice or for any other reason), is she going to look for help from the community that shunned her and judged her, or is she going to turn to the friends who were able to share her happiness?

There are many different paths to God's grace, some that pass through choices we've been warned against in the LDS church. The Mormons I know who've made such choices and have eventually straightened their lives out (from our perspective) and come back to their faith have done so because of a local community that loved and welcomed them, not one that judged and shunned them.

[Dragon Lady]

Katya, I agree with you. But it still begs the question, how do you support her without appearing like you approve of her choice? It's common in LDS culture to show disapproval because we don't know how to support without approval. We need an example. What's an example of what thebigcheese could say?

[Katya]

Katya, I agree with you. But it still begs the question, how do you support her without appearing like you approve of her choice? It's common in LDS culture to show disapproval because we don't know how to support without approval. We need an example. What's an example of what thebigcheese could say?

Why is it so important to make sure everyone knows that you disapprove of some aspects of this decision?

[melbabi]

Katya, I completely agree with you!! My best friend left the church in part because he was completely shunned for getting kicked off his mission. It was sad. My thoughts on this are that if they're happy, I will wish them congratulations. If they asked for my opinion, I would tell them that I would hope they chose to get married but that it is their decision and I will love and support them no matter what they do. I would not offer my unsolicited advice though, especially in that situation. And especially since she is already probably already well aware of her LDS friends' thoughts since she was LDS.

[mic0]

she is already probably already well aware of her LDS friends' thoughts since she was LDS.

Exactly. Very rarely does someone forget the things they were raised with. She knows what is expected, she knows what people think (she probably thought the same way herself). Either way, this is what is happening in her life now and to me that means she needs the support first and foremost.

[Marduk]

Yes, I think she is well aware of her mother's feelings on the issue, and that church members would disapprove.

What might she say?

"I'm glad to see you so happy."
"Good luck, a child is a lot of work, but a lot of joy too."
"Wow, that's very exciting."

None of these express specific approval of the action, but at the same time are congratulatory. If one struggles with saying something that might be construed as approval, any of these should work without doing that.

[Katya]

If it were me, I would probably just say "Congrats!", but I also like Marduk's answers. And I do think that there is a time and place for evaluating the nuances of a situation in great detail, but I don't think that a FB comment is either. (On the other hand, if I had a neighbor in this situation and if I had young children who were asking questions about it, we'd probably have a long discussion about how I felt about it and how I thought we should treat this neighbor.)

[thebigcheese]

I do think that there is a time and place for evaluating the nuances of a situation in great detail, but I don't think that a FB comment is either. (On the other hand, if I had a neighbor in this situation and if I had young children who were asking questions about it, we'd probably have a long discussion about how I felt about it and how I thought we should treat this neighbor.)

Yeah, I know. But part of me also wants to prepare for future occasions when something like this comes up. Surely this isn't the last one of my friends who will get pregnant without being married. I mean, this is already the third girl from my YW class. Not to mention all the nonmembers I went to high school with. If anybody's breeding like rabbits, it's those girls.

So yeah, I'm just curious how other people feel about this kind of thing. For example, another girl from my home ward was texting me the other day...she was just ranting and ranting about how this girl has screwed up her life so much and she can't even believe it's gotten so bad and now it just keeps getting worse and, oh my goodness, this girl doesn't even realize what she's doing to herself...

[NerdGirl]

Yeah, I would just go with "Congratulations" or maybe something along the lines of what Marduk suggested. I consider friends who have left the church to be just like any other friends who don't share my beliefs - they'll probably make life choices that are different from the ones I'm going to make. If they want my opinion on how they're living their lives, they'll ask for it. They already know that I wouldn't do what they did, so I don't need to tell them. And the baby has already been made, so disapproving of it doesn't change anything. If she had told me she was thinking about getting pregnant with a guy she wasn't married too, then I might mention that the idea of having kid with someone that you hadn't yet made a marriage commitment with was a bit scary to me, and ask her a bit about what her motivation was to make sure she wasn't trying to get him to stick around or trying to make him commit by having his baby. But that's an entirely different scenario, and the only thing to do know is to be happy for her and supportive. I know people leave the church or go inactive for all different reasons, but the most common one I've encountered is that they just do not believe in the doctrine anymore. It's not that they want to go out and have fun and break all the Mormon rules, they just honestly don't have a testimony of what I believe to be true. Conveying my disapproval of their life choices isn't going to make them start believing in the gospel. But sticking by them and still being a friend and not alienating them will make it easier for them to come to back to the church if they ever do decide to.

[Craig Jessop]

I would say congrats, absolutely. I wouldn't treat her pregnancy any different than if it were a temple wed, LDS woman's. If I were a good friend I would ask about marriage plans, but if not I'd congratulate her and worry about my own freaking salvation. If I were a parent I'd be heartbroken, but it wouldn't change my love for my daughter (or her baby), so I'd save the marriage talk for a moment when the Spirit dictates she is receptive. Otherwise I'd just love her -- not her choices, and I'm sure she'd get that -- but I think that the show of support would mean far more to her and put her in the position to receive counsel much faster, especially considering how she would have imagined my reaction.

[Katya]

I do think that there is a time and place for evaluating the nuances of a situation in great detail, but I don't think that a FB comment is either. (On the other hand, if I had a neighbor in this situation and if I had young children who were asking questions about it, we'd probably have a long discussion about how I felt about it and how I thought we should treat this neighbor.)

Yeah, I know. But part of me also wants to prepare for future occasions when something like this comes up.

Prepare in what way?

[vorpal blade]

Tough problem. How do you show love and leave open the door, but at the same time not implicitly condone sinful behavior? At times like this I like to think of WWJWOF (What Would Jesus Write On Facebook). The writing that comes to mind is found in John Chapter 8. As a reminder

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

I've read that this is the only time we are told in the scriptures that Jesus wrote anything personally. Well, that is just an aside.

In my mind "Go, and sin no more" sounds a lot less congratulatory and a lot more shunning and judging of a person who was well aware of the law of Moses, then the innocent question, "When's the wedding?"

I hope I don't get into trouble here asking WWJWOF.

[Marduk]

Interesting point, Vorpal, but I don't think totally applicable. Remember that Jesus in that circumstance was speaking as the woman's spiritual leader and not simply as a friend, and this woman was guilty of breaking not only moral law, but also the law of the land. Neither of those conditions applies here.

[Sky Bones]

My brother and his girlfriend at the time desperately wanted kids, so they tried and tried and finally had a little girl. I sincerely congratulated them and was only ever supportive because having a baby is tough and requires a lot of patience and dedication. Sure, I suppose I didn't technically approve of them having a baby out of wedlock... but at the time I never thought of it in terms of my opinion. What mattered to me was that they were doing their best and trying to be good parents. I've found that most people tend to do better and try harder when positively encouraged and supported. Two years later and they just got married and they're starting to think about number two. They seem like quite the happy little family.

[thebigcheese]

I do think that there is a time and place for evaluating the nuances of a situation in great detail, but I don't think that a FB comment is either. (On the other hand, if I had a neighbor in this situation and if I had young children who were asking questions about it, we'd probably have a long discussion about how I felt about it and how I thought we should treat this neighbor.)

Yeah, I know. But part of me also wants to prepare for future occasions when something like this comes up.

Prepare in what way?

Oh, just mental preparation. I've been caught off guard in situations like these before. Like when one of my LDS friends showed up with a nose ring. I had always considered her to be one of the more solid girls at church, so I was shocked! Before that, I'd never really encountered a situation where one of my friends had started to stray from the church. I didn't know if I should acknowledge it, ignore it, or what. I had no idea how to react without being a jerk because it was something I'd never thought about before.

So I think it helps to consider these things beforehand and establish some general guidelines for yourself, so you don't say something completely horrible in the moment. For example, knowing that it's generally inappropriate to ask someone if their pregnancy was planned/unplanned -- that has prevented me from being a jerk on a few different occasions. Knowing that people generally don't like to discuss their salary -- that has prevented me from being overly nosey on a few different occasions. I don't want to be a jerk, but sometimes I'm not quick enough to fully realize the implications of what I'm saying. But if I have a plan, that helps.

Also, it's possible that I may someday have a daughter in this situation. I wouldn't want to be the unsupportive parent...

[Katya]

Oh, just mental preparation. I've been caught off guard in situations like these before. Like when one of my LDS friends showed up with a nose ring. I had always considered her to be one of the more solid girls at church, so I was shocked! Before that, I'd never really encountered a situation where one of my friends had started to stray from the church. I didn't know if I should acknowledge it, ignore it, or what. I had no idea how to react without being a jerk because it was something I'd never thought about before.

So I think it helps to consider these things beforehand and establish some general guidelines for yourself, so you don't say something completely horrible in the moment. For example, knowing that it's generally inappropriate to ask someone if their pregnancy was planned/unplanned -- that has prevented me from being a jerk on a few different occasions. Knowing that people generally don't like to discuss their salary -- that has prevented me from being overly nosey on a few different occasions. I don't want to be a jerk, but sometimes I'm not quick enough to fully realize the implications of what I'm saying. But if I have a plan, that helps.

Also, it's possible that I may someday have a daughter in this situation. I wouldn't want to be the unsupportive parent...

A fair point, especially about a little forethought helping you avoid saying something rude or ill-advised. (I wouldn't consider getting a nose ring "straying" from the church, though.)