How do we make sure everyone is heard?

[melbabi]

I agree with Unit, I'm staying out of it from now on. Because whatever I say will get attacked and an attempt will be made to prove that I'm wrong/mislead. However, honestly that only strengthens my beliefs. So I'm no longer going to try to change anyone else's thoughts on this subject as it has proved useless and exhausting.

[Katya]

I agree with Unit, I'm staying out of it from now on. Because whatever I say will get attacked and an attempt will be made to prove that I'm wrong/mislead.

I'm very concerned about a dynamic on this forum where one side in an argument wins by yelling the loudest. That's not a productive environment for sharing opinions or exploring ideas.

[Dragon Lady]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

[Whistler]

Instead of attempting to reason with certain people, we shall refuse to talk to them!

[Katya]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

I have no problem with the idea of locking a topic, but I'm concerned about a larger dynamic that isn't limited to this topic.

[Dragon Lady]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

I have no problem with the idea of locking a topic, but I'm concerned about a larger dynamic that isn't limited to this topic.

Which is fair. But it seems to be worse here than it does in other threads. I guess certain topics are just too near and dear to everyone's hearts?

[wired]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

Better idea. I say we vote on who won, THEN lock the topic. No pansy draws here.

EDIT: For the record, I vote for Pa Grape as the winner of this thread.

[Katya]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

Better idea. I say we vote on who won, THEN lock the topic. No pansy draws here.

EDIT: For the record, I vote for Pa Grape as the winner of this thread.

[Katya]

Which is fair. But it seems to be worse here than it does in other threads. I guess certain topics are just too near and dear to everyone's hearts?

Or the less combative among us are avoiding certain topics because we don't want a brawl to break out, which may just be the flip side of what you're talking about. (Note that this thread was started by a relatively new member, who is now bowing out because of the way she's been treated.)

[Sharona Fleming]

I'm bowing out as well. Sorry for fueling the fire with my three posts in this thread.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Those who have backed out: it might be helpful if you articulate what you see as the problem (like Katya did).

[NerdGirl]

Honestly, the main reason I don't post much in threads like this (or start and then stop) is just because there's too much being said for me to keep up with.

[melbabi]

It seems to me that it has turned into a debate rather than a dialogue. This website is how I define both debate and dialogue. http://www.nald.ca/library/learning/study/scdvd.htm
I'm not saying I didn't contribute to that environment, I am well aware I did. However, I became aware of it and so I decided not to contribute to that anymore. Plus I felt my experiences and the experiences of people I trust were devalued and that was frustrating to me because I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) not to do that to others.

[Unit of Energy]

I just generally stay out of conversations involving controversial subjects with Vorpal and Marduk on opposing sides. I enjoy reading both of their responses, but when it is in a conversation such as this nothing that any one else says seems to be noticed. I usually find myself to be somewhere between their points of view, and it often turns into an argument about which extreme is correct. I think sometimes that we all forget that our opinions aren't the only one in existence, I know that I do quite often. In this particular discussion, I didn't join until the proclamation to the family was brought up, because I simply don't have a lot of background in feminism before then. I have, however, taken a class devoted to the proclamation, and three or four other classes where it was the foundation of our subject matter. I am very familiar with the principles taught there in.

I do not take issue with debates, I just have a problem when they descend the level that this conversation has.

To address the once subject of this thread, feminism is something that most of us here are in support of. Perhaps not third wave, but most of us agree with the principles of first and second wave feminism. But many of us, myself included, find feminism to be a daunting and scary thing to study about, for reasons such as it's bad reputation in our LDS culture.

[vorpal blade]

I agree with Unit, I'm staying out of it from now on. Because whatever I say will get attacked and an attempt will be made to prove that I'm wrong/mislead.

I'm very concerned about a dynamic on this forum where one side in an argument wins by yelling the loudest. That's not a productive environment for sharing opinions or exploring ideas.

I don't interpret anyone here as yelling at all. We've been exploring different opinions. If I disagree with someone it is my nature to bring together evidence or arguments to counter it, and I expect others to do the same when they disagree with me. Like...I'm doing right now, calmly and quietly.

[vorpal blade]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

I realize this is a long thread, and not everyone has been able to keep up with the entire discussion. Sauron said he had a lot more he wanted to say, and I had a lot more I wanted to say. I don't think either of us were just repeating the same things, unless in trying to reply to each person, some of whom had similar arguments, I repeated myself. I thought it would be interesting to go on and explore what makes Eloise Bell a feminist, and how valid is her point of view.

[vorpal blade]

Instead of attempting to reason with certain people, we shall refuse to talk to them!

Exactly.

[vorpal blade]

I vote we just close this topic. Those contributing just keep saying the same things until someone backs out. It's just drawing out more contention. Could we just call it a draw and lock the topic so there are no more future posts?

Better idea. I say we vote on who won, THEN lock the topic. No pansy draws here.

EDIT: For the record, I vote for Pa Grape as the winner of this thread.

I remember Pa Grape as a writer, but I don't get the joke.

[Dragon Lady]

I agree with Unit, I'm staying out of it from now on. Because whatever I say will get attacked and an attempt will be made to prove that I'm wrong/mislead.

I'm very concerned about a dynamic on this forum where one side in an argument wins by yelling the loudest. That's not a productive environment for sharing opinions or exploring ideas.

I don't interpret anyone here as yelling at all. We've been exploring different opinions. If I disagree with someone it is my nature to bring together evidence or arguments to counter it, and I expect others to do the same when they disagree with me. Like...I'm doing right now, calmly and quietly.

In another thread, Marduk asked if he was contentious and I brought up the point that sometimes people are viewed as contentious when they just argue about every point. It's even more so on an online forum where you can't hear tone of voice or facial expressions. While I've agreed with most of what you've said, I've still got a feel of you being contentious on this thread, simply because you've been arguing every single point that anyone brings up. Then when they counter your argument, you counter it again. I know that you don't intend to be contentious, so I haven't really been bugged by it. But I can definitely see why some people have felt attacked by what you said.

And I don't think that Katya literally meant yelling when she said, "I'm very concerned about a dynamic on this forum where one side in an argument wins by yelling the loudest." Rather I think she was talking about one person being more overwhelming in a conversation, which I think you have been. Most of the text in this thread is yours and you've seemed to have an opinion on everyone else's opinion.

Now, I'm not trying to put all the blame on you. Heavens no. There are plenty of people in this thread who have been stubbornly opinionated. I only point this out because you specifically brought it to light. And I think you honestly believe that you aren't seeing yourself as others are seeing you. I know you don't want to offend, so I point it out so that you can see how others might be seeing your arguments.

[vorpal blade]

Dear Dragon Lady,

I have to admit that my initial reaction to your post was to mentally put together a counter argument. Now, I'm really not trying to do that, but I have some questions to ask. Not in the spirit of defending myself or bringing an attack on you, but I'm a little curious. This is way off topic, but perhaps it will be helpful to post it here.

Is it okay to disagree with people in this forum? From the other thread it seems that some people consider any disagreement as hating on someone. I certainly don't think of disagreement as hate speech. You don't either, do you?

If it is okay to disagree with someone, how do you do that without them feeling attacked? What do we do about people who always feel that when someone disagrees with them then they are the victims of hate and are being attacked? Do we just ignore these people unless we can find something to agree about?

Is it a desirable goal to not respond to what others have said in order to avoid being overwhelming in a conversation? In an actual conversation it is annoying when someone monopolizes the conversation and doesn't let others have a chance to talk. But here, when there are hours or days between my posts (usually), or at least long periods of time that they can respond when they want to, should I still be careful to make sure that I don't post any more often than the average person?

That's interesting about the history of knitting.