Sex Education in the Church

[Waldorf and Sauron]

I like this article, but one thing bothered me about this — some kids will feel comfortable enough to ask all these questions. I know I didn't, and my parents never talked to me about sex. Maybe they were just waiting for me to ask?

In a related subject— has anyone ever participated in a discussion on family planning in the church or Mormon culture? Because it's my impression that they're pretty rare, and that everyone has this vague idea that we always need to be having more kids right now.

[Whistler]

I think we talked about family planning here and on the Board, does that count? Some people are fine with birth control, some people go natural. Most people agree that children should be wanted before they are produced, but many pregnancies are accidental, etc.

[UnluckyStuntman]

I like this article, but one thing bothered me about this — some kids will feel comfortable enough to ask all these questions. I know I didn't, and my parents never talked to me about sex. Maybe they were just waiting for me to ask?

In a related subject— has anyone ever participated in a discussion on family planning in the church or Mormon culture? Because it's my impression that they're pretty rare, and that everyone has this vague idea that we always need to be having more kids right now.

So that little girl in the article was pretty much me, except I started asking those questions when I was two - probably because that's when my little brother was born.

I remember having family planning discussions with my mother and then later with assorted roommates at BYU, but honestly I can't recall ever having that kind of discussion in a church setting (or a BYU classroom, for that matter).

And I think that this might be the thread that Whistler was remembering:
http://www.theboardboard.org/viewtopic.php?t=1829

[Imogen]

i'll have to take a class on natural family planning when i get married, but the prohibition on birth control is a piece of Catholic doctrine i don't follow. actually, i don't see it as being critical to my salvation, so....yeah....i'll take the class, but i will not be doing the natural family planning thing.

[Katya]

In a related subject— has anyone ever participated in a discussion on family planning in the church or Mormon culture? Because it's my impression that they're pretty rare, and that everyone has this vague idea that we always need to be having more kids right now.

In past decades (maybe as late as the 70s?) it was taught that if you weren't having as many kids as possible, you were unrighteous or weak in some way. Modern teaching had backed away from that idea (i.e., that the number of children to have is between the couple and the Lord and no one else), but culturally, I don't think we actually embrace the idea that any number of kids is potentially OK.

There are so many ideas and cultural values that come into play when deciding how many kids to have (or judging others for the number of kids they have). Here are a few I can think of:

- We conflate righteousness and misery. (We think that if we're not busy, stressed or pushed to our limit, we must not be sacrificing enough. So, more kids = more stress = more righteousness.)

- Earlier generations (who were explicitly taught that they needed to have as many kids as possible) are angry that later generations aren't being taught the same thing and are judgmental of people who have fewer children.

- The burden of childbirth and childrearing falls mainly on women, and women are taught to put their own needs and desires last, so it seems selfish to want to have fewer children.

- There is an abundance of folk doctrine about children (such as the idea that everyone has a certain number of spirits "assigned" to be born to them).

- Wanting a mental, physical, or emotional break from child rearing is seen as weakness.

- Women are expected to find fulfillment in being mothers and housewives, so having fewer kids in order to work or gain more education is seen as suspect.

For what it's worth, though, I can think of a number of Board questions about brides-to-be on birth control, so it sounds like the idea of not having kids right after marriage (for whatever reasons) is gaining some traction or acceptance.

[Defy V]

For what it's worth, though, I can think of a number of Board questions about brides-to-be on birth control, so it sounds like the idea of not having kids right after marriage (for whatever reasons) is gaining some traction or acceptance.

I think it gained traction earlier than we might be giving it credit for. I asked my mom about this last week and she said that in the 80s there were plenty of people who waited a little while to have kids and have as many as they wanted, and this was in a BYU married student ward.

[Katya]

For what it's worth, though, I can think of a number of Board questions about brides-to-be on birth control, so it sounds like the idea of not having kids right after marriage (for whatever reasons) is gaining some traction or acceptance.

I think it gained traction earlier than we might be giving it credit for. I asked my mom about this last week and she said that in the 80s there were plenty of people who waited a little while to have kids and have as many as they wanted, and this was in a BYU married student ward.

I could see that. I'd be interested to know how much pushback there was (if any) against it and how widespread it was at various times.

Also, between singles wards and primary callings, I've spent very little time in RS with married women over the last decade (where conversations on the topic might take place), so I may be misreading the mood of the moment.

[Tao]

BYU offers (requires? strongly recommends?) a pre-marital health clinic that covers a large range of options, it sounded from that that they expect a large percentage of students to utilize some form of birth control. Though I found it interesting the differences between the class taught by the doctor and the one taught by the nurse, the doctor knew surprisingly little about IUDs and the nurse skipped entire classes of birth control.

[wired]

For what it's worth, though, I can think of a number of Board questions about brides-to-be on birth control, so it sounds like the idea of not having kids right after marriage (for whatever reasons) is gaining some traction or acceptance.

I think it gained traction earlier than we might be giving it credit for. I asked my mom about this last week and she said that in the 80s there were plenty of people who waited a little while to have kids and have as many as they wanted, and this was in a BYU married student ward.

Similar story here. My in-laws told me that they had an interview with a stake presidency member before being married and they were told to have as many kids as possible. They then talked to their parents about it, both sets of whom said, "Eh, no one likes that guy anyway. Figure it out between you and the Lord."

[Dragon Lady]

I wouldn't say that having as many kids as possible is stressed in our culture anymore. I can't tell you the number of people who have asked me how many kids I'm planning on having. From every generation. And I can't count the number of people who are shocked when I say something like, "I'll tell you when I'm done." Or when pressed, "but if it were really up to you, how many would it be?" and they won't give up till I give them an answer so I pick 5 (mostly because that's the number of kids in both my family and Yellow's) I'm surprised at how many people are shocked because I'd want "that many." [blink] Sorry, but to me, 5 isn't that many kids. 4-5 seems like a good normal to me. 7+ is more of a large family in my head.

But seriously, we're not deciding now how many kids we'll have. We'll play it by ear. We'll discuss every individual one with the Lord. If we only have 3, so be it. If we have 8, heaven help me :S, but we'll manage. But the pressure from people wanting to know exactly how many kids we'll have, and wanting it to be 4 or less is surprisingly large.

Oh, and perhaps I should mention that my entire social circle is LDS. I know very, very few non-members.

[UnluckyStuntman]

- There is an abundance of folk doctrine about children (such as the idea that everyone has a certain number of spirits "assigned" to be born to them).

Has this ever officially been taught? Because this is the reason that I hear the most for people having more children than they had originally planned for / wanted. "Well, we wanted three, but we just knew there was one more waiting for us."

[Dragon Lady]

- There is an abundance of folk doctrine about children (such as the idea that everyone has a certain number of spirits "assigned" to be born to them).

Has this ever officially been taught? Because this is the reason that I hear the most for people having more children than they had originally planned for / wanted. "Well, we wanted three, but we just knew there was one more waiting for us."

Just because it's not officially taught doesn't mean it can't be true. I'm not saying there's a pre-ordained number of children for each family, but I do believe there are instances where a couple can, in fact, know that there is another child waiting to come to their family. (I also believe that if that family decides to be done anyway, that child will have another home somewhere else.) For instance, my mother had a very vivid dream of two girls sitting on a park bench talking. They looked at my mom, waved, then one faded into the distance. She woke up without any doubt in her mind that she was going to have two girls and one of them would die. She assumed that she'd get pregnant with twins and one would die in utero or at birth. Turns out, though, that she got pregnant with one child and at 8 months pregnant, the baby died in utero and was stillborn. (It is possible, but not guaranteed that the baby died due to a car accident.) 18 months later, I was born.

Now, she wasn't at the point of, "I'm done with children, but I feel like I should have 2 more and one should die." No, she wasn't done with children at all. Rather, she believes that God was helping to prepare her for the death of a future child and with a promise that there would still be another that lived.

She'll also tell stories about my brother talking to her before she got pregnant with him. Helping her learn things that she needed desperately to know before he was born. Like patience and better communication with my father. (He turned out to be a, well, trying child.)

I don't believe things like this are common nor should they be expected. But I do believe that it can and does happen.

If we truly believe in personal revelation, I don't think anyone should disbelieve or look down upon anyone who says, "We wanted this, but we really felt like God wanted this, so we chose to follow His counsel." Whether that has to do with number of children, career path, hometown, or what to eat for dinner.

[Architect]

For what it's worth, I was born in the 80s, almost exactly six years after my parents got married, and I was the second child. If my parents had felt pressured about having lots of kids I would have been #5 instead. It didn't make any sense for them to have lots of kids at the time; my dad didn't even finish grad school until I was 2 and my brother was 5!

[Whistler]

BYU offers (requires? strongly recommends?) a pre-marital health clinic that covers a large range of options, it sounded from that that they expect a large percentage of students to utilize some form of birth control. Though I found it interesting the differences between the class taught by the doctor and the one taught by the nurse, the doctor knew surprisingly little about IUDs and the nurse skipped entire classes of birth control.

Yeah, I wasn't particularly impressed with the pre-marital class. It was useful, but when I pressed the nurse about what 99% effective meant, she didn't know (it turns out it is per woman and not per act. Hooray research!).

[Katya]

- There is an abundance of folk doctrine about children (such as the idea that everyone has a certain number of spirits "assigned" to be born to them).

Has this ever officially been taught? Because this is the reason that I hear the most for people having more children than they had originally planned for / wanted. "Well, we wanted three, but we just knew there was one more waiting for us."

Just because it's not officially taught doesn't mean it can't be true.

I have no trouble believing that it could be true in individual cases for individual families, but I don't know of any evidence that it's true for everyone (which is why I worded it that way).

[UnluckyStuntman]

- There is an abundance of folk doctrine about children (such as the idea that everyone has a certain number of spirits "assigned" to be born to them).

Has this ever officially been taught? Because this is the reason that I hear the most for people having more children than they had originally planned for / wanted. "Well, we wanted three, but we just knew there was one more waiting for us."

If we truly believe in personal revelation, I don't think anyone should disbelieve or look down upon anyone who says, "We wanted this, but we really felt like God wanted this, so we chose to follow His counsel." Whether that has to do with number of children, career path, hometown, or what to eat for dinner.

I don't look down on people who believe in or follow personal revelation. I was actually thinking of my parents when I was asking that question - my mother didn't want more than three kids but she says she knew she was supposed to have four, so that's what happened. I was just wondering if the idea of having "fixed" (or pre-determined) families is something that is doctrine, or if people just assume that because Mormons are taught that we were in families in the preexistence, that those families are the same ones that we go to earth with. Does that make sense?

[Unit of Energy]

I don't ever remember being taught that we were in families before earth. I don't really believe that we were, there are too many teachings that fly in the face of that thought for me. I do believe that some people may have chosen their families beforehand, but I doubt most of us did.

[Katya]

I was born in the (very) late 70s and my mother took a lot of grief from people for not having another child for several years, so there's a conflicting data point.

It's also worth noting that an idea doesn't have to be a majority viewpoint for it to be damaging. If a couple is feeling judged or conflicted or sensitive about their family planning choices, judgmental statements from even a few people (especially from people in authority or other positions of power) can be very hurtful.

[UnluckyStuntman]

I don't ever remember being taught that we were in families before earth. I don't really believe that we were, there are too many teachings that fly in the face of that thought for me. I do believe that some people may have chosen their families beforehand, but I doubt most of us did.

This is why I'm confused, because I was taught that families were formed in the preexistence. I blame Saturday's Warrior.

[krebscout]

This is why I'm confused, because I was taught that families were formed in the preexistence. I blame Saturday's Warrior.

Definitely not doctrine. You were taught incorrectly.