Linguistic patterns in Utah (question #68779)

[Yarjka]

Here in Toronto, if I ask for a "carmel" topping, they ask me to repeat and I have to say it "caramel" to be understood. I've always pronounced caramel as "carmel." Now I'm being forced to change my ways (I've actually just decided to avoid caramel whenever possible).

I wouldn't mind seeing a map of "carmel" vs. "caramel", much like this soda vs. pop map. My guess is Utah would lie in the middle like it does there. (For the record, I grew up saying "soda pop," but sometimes shortened it to soda or pop).

[No Dice]

This map doesn't have quite as many data as the soda/pop one, but it's got caramel/carmel mapped out.

http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dia ... s/q_4.html

[Yarjka]

This map doesn't have quite as many data as the soda/pop one, but it's got caramel/carmel mapped out.

http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dia ... s/q_4.html

Ooh, thanks.

[Craig Jessop]

And it's official... what I formerly called soda I will now exclusively call a "tarzan slam."

[Portia]

And it's official... what I formerly called soda I will now exclusively call a "tarzan slam."

I prefer "Bloomberg death juice."

[Yarjka]

I came up with a couple more things I say as they gave me trouble a couple of times this week:

I'll = all. Exact same pronunciation, unless they both appear in the same sentence and I actively try to say it with an 'ai' sound, but it always sounds forced and odd if I do.

our = are. Exact same pronunciation, again though, if they both appear in the same sentence, I'll actively try to say it like the word 'hour'.

Is this an individual quirk, a regional quirk, or very common feature?

[krebscout]

My son is in a phonological class for pre-schoolers with speech development problems. So it's just an hour-and-a-half of pronunciation practice. One of the teachers is Southern, and I heard her for five minutes trying to get a kid to pronounce "popcorn." "Say POP. COHEN. Popcohen. COHEN."

Just struck me as funny.

[Katya]

I came up with a couple more things I say as they gave me trouble a couple of times this week:

I'll = all. Exact same pronunciation, unless they both appear in the same sentence and I actively try to say it with an 'ai' sound, but it always sounds forced and odd if I do.

our = are. Exact same pronunciation, again though, if they both appear in the same sentence, I'll actively try to say it like the word 'hour'.

Is this an individual quirk, a regional quirk, or very common feature?

I definitely do the latter one.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Wait, the vowels in "car" and "caught" are supposed to be different? Centaur map

[Yarjka]

My son is in a phonological class for pre-schoolers with speech development problems. So it's just an hour-and-a-half of pronunciation practice. One of the teachers is Southern, and I heard her for five minutes trying to get a kid to pronounce "popcorn." "Say POP. COHEN. Popcohen. COHEN."

Just struck me as funny.

I was in the speech development class all the way through elementary school for my inability to pronounce the 'r' sound. I still have a complex about it, since I do pronounce it differently than others (if I'm not careful, 'quarter' ends up sounding like 'water'), but speech development class was a gigantic waste of time. They just kept showing me a picture of a tiger and asking me to growl and say "They're great!" over and over again. Nothing ever changed though. Most of the time was actually spent on the 's' sound since that was a bigger problem for most. I rocked the s's, but that didn't seem to matter much to anyone, since I sucked at r's.

I was scared to death of the trilled 'r' in Russian, until I figured out it was much easier for me than the weird 'r' sound of English which still doesn't make much sense (and which English lesson books in Russian teach students to say in the UK style, which is closer to my own, so turns out I was right all along--stupid elementary school grumble grumble...).

[Katya]

Wait, the vowels in "car" and "caught" are supposed to be different? Centaur map

Not in my dialect. (If you don't distinguish between "cot" and "caught," you presumably don't distinguish between [the vowels in] "car" and "caught.")

[Craig Jessop]

Wait, the vowels in "car" and "caught" are supposed to be different? Centaur map

Says the kid who pronounced centaur to rhyme with saunter until I made fun of him for it.

[krebscout]

(If you don't distinguish between "cot" and "caught," you presumably don't distinguish between "car" and "caught.")

Really? I say "cot" and "caught" the same, but "car" and "caught?" Is it like "cah?"

[Katya]

(If you don't distinguish between "cot" and "caught," you presumably don't distinguish between "car" and "caught.")

Really? I say "cot" and "caught" the same, but "car" and "caught?" Is it like "cah?"

Sorry, edited. I meant the vowels in "car" and "caught" would be the same. (It's a poor minimal pair, though, if you ask me.)

[Yarjka]

Adding another oddity of my language here, to see if it's true of anyone else:

Again = ih sound (rhymes with 'bin,' 'sin,' 'gin')
Against = eh sound (rhymes with 'fenced')

Is this part of what's going on with 'mountain' discussed previously?

Also, 'pin' and 'pen' are not differentiated - both use the ih sound of pin (leading to lots of confusion when I ask for one or the other). This includes words like 'open' and 'happen.'

[Katya]

Also, 'pin' and 'pen' are not differentiated - both use the ih sound of pin (leading to lots of confusion when I ask for one or the other). This includes words like 'open' and 'happen.'

The pin/pen merger is generally associated with the American south. (My aunt who grew up in Tennessee has it.)

I wouldn't say it's the same thing as "mountain," because I see that as a syllabic "n" vs. a schwa sound (with the latter being more common in Utah).

[Genuine Article]

Also, 'pin' and 'pen' are not differentiated - both use the ih sound of pin (leading to lots of confusion when I ask for one or the other). This includes words like 'open' and 'happen.'

My mom does the pin/pen thing, as she was born and raised in Florida, and one day when she was asking for a pen we noticed and called her out for saying pin and embarrassed her so much that she went away and practiced saying them. The next day she very loudly asked for a "pehn" to prove she knew the difference.

[Yarjka]

Looks like there is a team of linguists on the case for the mountain pronunciation: http://news.byu.edu/archive12-dec-tdropping.aspx. Now that I hear the two audio samples, I'm not entirely sure which one I say. I'll need someone to record me when I'm not thinking about it.

[Katya]

Most Americans drop the T and release the air through the nose. Utahns drop the T and release the air through the mouth.

I'd say that analysis comes pretty close to my "syllabic n vs. schwa" hypothesis.