Family and Work: My Thoughts, Let Me Show You Them

[Marduk]

And this whole thread is the problem with all these women trying to have rights.

It was SO much easier in the olden days when I could just tell my wife to stay home and take care of my babies and make me my dinner.

Now I've got to be all "we'll have children, I mean, if you want, depending on how many you want, and when you want to have them, depending on if we can manage it through the career that you may or may not choose to have."

Sheesh woman! Get back in my kitchen and make me my damn dinner! (Also feed the kids.)

[UffishThought]

That's why plural marriage is actually the most progressive choice. With so many wives, odds are good that at least one will be more than overjoyed to be in charge of your feeding and childcare!

[Marduk]

That's why plural marriage is actually the most progressive choice. With so many wives, odds are good that at least one will be more than overjoyed to be in charge of your feeding and childcare!

I'll take it. Where do I find volunteers?

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Uffish, will you marry me?

[Unit of Energy]

Family life as we think of it has only really been in existence since the industrial revolution. Prior to that men and women and children would all work together to keep things running smoothly.

Prior to the 18th century fathers were actually responsible for their children's upbringing and mothers were considered second class parents. Even into the 20th century fathers were usually the ones granted custody of the children in cases of divorce.

[UffishThought]

I don't know, can you support my sister wives and I in style and comfort? This knife cuts both ways.

But wait--maybe I'm not entitled to the benefits of your traditional male role if I buck traditional femininity by wanting to work outside the home. This is getting complicated fast!

[Imogen]

And this whole thread is the problem with all these women trying to have rights.

It was SO much easier in the olden days when I could just tell my wife to stay home and take care of my babies and make me my dinner.

Now I've got to be all "we'll have children, I mean, if you want, depending on how many you want, and when you want to have them, depending on if we can manage it through the career that you may or may not choose to have."

Sheesh woman! Get back in my kitchen and make me my damn dinner! (Also feed the kids.)

I thought you were the one who cooked. Why don't YOU get back in the kitchen?!?!?!?!

And, Uffish, I totally understand your point of view, but I wasn't speaking in absolutes. I guess I should qualify what I said as "I don't get how someone our age would go into a career they don't love, especially someone who is getting college educated." Kirke obviously has options at this point, and is just taking a job to make money, and that, to me, means he'll have a part of his life that is empty. Family is great, but I just don't see it as fulfilling EVERY need a person has.

Also, going back and re-reading his response, I was bothered that he was quick to assume a non-member doesn't believe in God. I believe in God, and I will never, ever be a Mormon. Nothing against you guys, but I already know it's not for me. I believe in God and am going through the process of joining a religion that works for me, but he made a LOT of broad assumptions about non-Mormons that I don't think he should've made. He's never NOT been Mormon, you know?

[Whistler]

While we're talking about our various situations, I have the extreme privilege and luxury of having my husband support me without me even having babies yet! I'm changing my mind about what I want to do with my life for like the fourth time. Sometimes I feel like I'm not contributing as much to our continued existence... but usually it is pretty nice.

[S.A.M.]

Does this put Whistler in the category of "trophy wife"? Her husband better think so!

[Portia]

Family life as we think of it has only really been in existence since the industrial revolution. Prior to that men and women and children would all work together to keep things running smoothly.

Prior to the 18th century fathers were actually responsible for their children's upbringing and mothers were considered second class parents. Even into the 20th century fathers were usually the ones granted custody of the children in cases of divorce.

I'll take this a chance to plug my favorite book, The Custom of the Country, by Edith Wharton. Written in the 1910s and set in the 1870s, the couple's acrimonious custody battle is fascinating. Now THERE is a woman who is far from suited to a nurturing role and needs to spend her 80 hours as a publicist or merchandise buyer.

[thatonemom]

I have like all the thoughts on this, so I will try to make some kind of coherent comment. First, there's nothing wrong with wanting to work and have a family. There's nothing wrong with that. Whether because you have to, or because you want to, there's nothing wrong with it. It's hard to stay home with small children. (I have two. I love them. They drive me bonkers sometimes.) Rearing kids can NOT be the only thing in your life. There's no balance. You need time to yourself, to pursue things that have nothing to do with being a wife/mom. (That's not to say you can't develop your talents in the family setting. Just to say that it's ok to develop yourself in hobbies, or work, or book clubs, or whatever) We should not make each other feel guilty about stuff like this.

As far as Kirke's answer... I think he really does mean well. But his answers tend to straddle the cliff between boldness and overbearance, and often take a tumble. I wish that he had taken the question from the perspective of "what would I do if I wanted to work, but felt like I couldn't/shouldn't?" It felt more like he focused on why it was illogical to feel that way, instead of the complexity of the real issue. He made a lot of assumptions (infertility was not an issue, lack of desire or ability to nurse wasn't considered, the whole "non-member" perspective had little in common with the way my family members that are not Mormons look at work/life balance). I better quit. I don't mean to rip on anyone. If there's anything I know, it's that I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what is best for my family. I don't have the time or knowledge to try to dictate what everyone else should be doing.

[Portia]

Are you going to be a working childless woman? Will you expect your missionary to financially support you upon his return? Do you work now? (Do they let Canadians work? With your Secret Service name change, I'm not even sure if you ARE Canadian!)

I'm in the process of battling some stupid immigration snafu in order to have a job on campus. (There's been a very frustrating delay in getting my SSN...).

If I never got married, or if I was unable to have children, I'd happily pursue a career in my chosen field, since I really like my major (and plan on getting a graduate degree whether or not I get married and have kids). If I had kids, but it was financially necessary for my family for me to work, or if I unexpectedly felt prompted to, or if staying at home all day was driving me insane, I'd be happy to do it. As it is, though, my missionary is majoring in something very employable, and we both agree that our current hypothetical optimal situation would let me stay home. (To which he was quick to add: unless you want to work, I'd be fine with that too.)

Basically, in the ideal scenario where there are no barriers to me working or staying home, I'd choose staying home (while my kids were young. Once they're all in school or something, I can see myself wanting to work). But there are tons of scenarios that would result in me being a happy working mom. Or happy working not-a-mom, as the case may be.

This all sounds very reasonable and ideal and communicative. It probably largely reflected my own views when I was much younger. Then life became messy; relationships were far from straightforward, hello, recession, I started doubting whether I'd want children, my scholastic ambitions morphed. Now I am just not a trusting person, quite frankly, and though it sounds lovely to be able to expect a man to "work everything out," it causes me too much stress to do that now, especially with bringing more young humans into it. I don't know if this is an issue of the "right person" (dubious), an issue of "not trying hard enough in relationships" (also doubtful), or just that life is complicated, money more so (seems most accurate).

[Zedability]

Are you going to be a working childless woman? Will you expect your missionary to financially support you upon his return? Do you work now? (Do they let Canadians work? With your Secret Service name change, I'm not even sure if you ARE Canadian!)

I'm in the process of battling some stupid immigration snafu in order to have a job on campus. (There's been a very frustrating delay in getting my SSN...).

If I never got married, or if I was unable to have children, I'd happily pursue a career in my chosen field, since I really like my major (and plan on getting a graduate degree whether or not I get married and have kids). If I had kids, but it was financially necessary for my family for me to work, or if I unexpectedly felt prompted to, or if staying at home all day was driving me insane, I'd be happy to do it. As it is, though, my missionary is majoring in something very employable, and we both agree that our current hypothetical optimal situation would let me stay home. (To which he was quick to add: unless you want to work, I'd be fine with that too.)

Basically, in the ideal scenario where there are no barriers to me working or staying home, I'd choose staying home (while my kids were young. Once they're all in school or something, I can see myself wanting to work). But there are tons of scenarios that would result in me being a happy working mom. Or happy working not-a-mom, as the case may be.

This all sounds very reasonable and ideal and communicative. It probably largely reflected my own views when I was much younger. Then life became messy; relationships were far from straightforward, hello, recession, I started doubting whether I'd want children, my scholastic ambitions morphed. Now I am just not a trusting person, quite frankly, and though it sounds lovely to be able to expect a man to "work everything out," it causes me too much stress to do that now, especially with bringing more young humans into it. I don't know if this is an issue of the "right person" (dubious), an issue of "not trying hard enough in relationships" (also doubtful), or just that life is complicated, money more so (seems most accurate).

Yeah, I have a great hypothetical future life, and now sometimes I feel like I'm just sitting around waiting for life to be like, "Hahaha, you thought you had it all planned out, that's cute. Let me mess that up for you." Part of me feels like this attitude is going to make it kind a self-fulfilling prophecy, since like you said, my current view does involve a lot of trust. Yay for being 18!

[Portia]

While we're talking about our various situations, I have the extreme privilege and luxury of having my husband support me without me even having babies yet! I'm changing my mind about what I want to do with my life for like the fourth time. Sometimes I feel like I'm not contributing as much to our continued existence... but usually it is pretty nice.

Does this put Whistler in the category of "trophy wife"? Her husband better think so!

Whistler, do you think the fact that you were trying to get pregnant affects either the work-balance situation or your perception of it?

A high-school friend of an ex of mine whose awesome blog I stalk had a stable, high-paying marketing career and when she lost her job she tried to get pregnant, and threw herself into it like it was a job. It caused her a lot of emotional turmoil because she didn't have control over it the way you might over school, and her husband is still in school (and therefore doesn't make much money). She had fertility problems, but eventually did get pregnant and worked while their son was in daycare, but now that they've moved to the West Coast she's caring for him full-time and freelancing. It's a very interesting blog and I think more accurately reflects modern women's mixed feelings on school/career/marriage/babies than a lot of the platitudes out there, on both sides.

And S.A.M., Whistler is awesome, but she is far from the ditz that one might associate with that term. Me on the other hand . . .

[Whistler]

While we're talking about our various situations, I have the extreme privilege and luxury of having my husband support me without me even having babies yet! I'm changing my mind about what I want to do with my life for like the fourth time. Sometimes I feel like I'm not contributing as much to our continued existence... but usually it is pretty nice.

Does this put Whistler in the category of "trophy wife"? Her husband better think so!

Whistler, do you think the fact that you were trying to get pregnant affects either the work-balance situation or your perception of it?

Yeah, I'm still trying to get pregnant, and when I don't I feel a little like I'm not doing my job, but honestly, there's only so much I can do to make myself fertile! I'm glad I have a part-time internship at the moment.

Since I'm aggressive when it comes to dating, and my husband isn't, we make a good pair. He also wanted to marry someone about as smart as him, so I might be a trophy wife in that regard! I think he is a tiny bit smarter than me though... we both have our strengths that compliment each other.

I am hoping to do some freelance writing or monetize my blog after my journalism internship, but I don't think it will make enough money to live off of... Maybe I can make videogames too. I've also toyed with the idea of getting back into piano technician-ship... you see the problems I have with my life .

[Katya]

While we're talking about our various situations, I have the extreme privilege and luxury of having my husband support me without me even having babies yet! I'm changing my mind about what I want to do with my life for like the fourth time. Sometimes I feel like I'm not contributing as much to our continued existence... but usually it is pretty nice.

Does this put Whistler in the category of "trophy wife"? Her husband better think so!

Whistler, do you think the fact that you were trying to get pregnant affects either the work-balance situation or your perception of it?

Yeah, I'm still trying to get pregnant, and when I don't I feel a little like I'm not doing my job, but honestly, there's only so much I can do to make myself fertile!

Lately, I've been reading a bit about royalty and royal families, and over and over again you see the pressure on the princess / queen / empress to produce an heir as soon as possible after marriage (especially if the succession laws are extra strict) and it sounds like the most stressful situation ever!

[Craig Jessop]

Wait, Kate is pregnant?

[Katya]

Wait, Kate is pregnant?

Not that I know of. (Sorry, can't tell if you're joking or not.)

[Craig Jessop]

Wait, Kate is pregnant?

Not that I know of. (Sorry, can't tell if you're joking or not.)

Of course I was joking. I'm very up-to-date on my royals gossip. It's pretty much the only kind I care about.

[Katya]

Wait, Kate is pregnant?

Not that I know of. (Sorry, can't tell if you're joking or not.)

Of course I was joking. I'm very up-to-date on my royals gossip. It's pretty much the only kind I care about.

Gotcha.