How Mormon are you?

[Craig Jessop]

I'm going to break my rule of not participating in super controversial threads to say that, while I'm a pretty orthodox Mormon (having scored 19 on the test -- the gross jello thing was the only holdout), I love you all. Just because I don't drink caffeine, and just because I attend the temple, and just because I look and dress like a picture out of the New Era, and just because I actually like living in Provo with all its foibles, doesn't mean that I think any less of you guys. Really.

[Imogen]

Members of other religions are a little bit Mormon. That's the whole point of the "bring all you have and let us add to it" quote from Hinckley.

The fact that most people don't commit murder makes them all just a little bit Mormon. We need to build on this common ground! For murderers, well... maybe they like green jello.

Or, in my view, the fact that you don't murder makes you a little bit Catholic... >_>

[Katya]

You obviously were doing much more than following the checklist while you were on your mission, whereas I've been trying to completely change my life after having the realization that I had become so complacent in my checklist-following that I was completely neglecting things that were much more important.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, but it seems that you're qualifying some commandments as more important than others? Could you please clarify? I'm really interested to understand what you mean.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:36-40

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Thanks, Katya. I was thinking about that as I typed that statement. But I still struggle to see how you can say "I'm going to love God, but not keep all the rest of his commandments."

Marduk, I get what you were saying--however, this poll was not specifically to measure general religiosity (like your questions would have done). I'm positive that most of us feel that we're improving in our religiosity aspect, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are following ALL the commandments of the Father. The real question boils down to this: Do you intend (personally) to obey ALL of Father's commandments?

Brother, thanks. I agree. I don't think anything less of everyone. I'm just curious and trying more to understand everyone else's point of view.

yayfulness, thou saist " Keeping all other commandments while ignoring these two is following the law and forgetting the Lawgiver. And it's the Lawgiver who saves us, not the law." But I still don't see how one can KEEP those two, and not the other ones.

Everyone, I see in my life that there are things that are not taught by the church that are open to personaly interpretation. It's all up to everyone individually to make those decisions for themselves. However, there are some things that are declared unequivically that we I don't think we can decide that we disagree with--whether it be loving your neighbor or keeping the Word of Wisdom. Thoughts?

[Giovanni Schwartz]

And then I just thought of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind, and strength."

Which seems a corollary to "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Thoughts?

[UnluckyStuntman]

I also feel that I'm being slightly understood. Maybe. Or maybe I'm just crazy. But from my point of view, the most important things to being a good Mormon are obeying the commandments (including the ones NOT specifically mentioned in the quiz--serving others, paying fast offerings, etc. are still important). I personally can't imagine doing something that is specifically against a commandment, while simultaneously defining myself as a "good" Mormon, or a "better" Mormon than I was when I WAS obeying all the commandments. Thoughts?

I just wanted to point out that when I answered the poll, I intentionally gave myself fewer points, because I don't feel like a Mormon, even though some of the things that I do happen to coincide with Mormon activities (according to your list). For example, I "follow the Word of Wisdom," partially because I was raised to, partially because I'm living with my (active Mormon) parents right now, and partially for health reasons. I don't smoke and I don't drink, but there are no moral - or fear of God - reasons to prevent me from doing so. I may drink in the future, but right now it doesn't really fit my lifestyle, so I don't. I'm also faithful to my husband, so I follow the law of chastity. And my mother is the relief society president, so since I live with her, I attend church from time to time with my family.

I guess my whole point is that one's Mormon-ness is (obviously) more complicated that what we can evaluate by a quiz, partially because lots of people behave in a "Mormon" way, though their motivations are vary.

The results are still very interesting, but I think it's important to note that following the commandments isn't all there is to it. It's easy to follow the letter of the law - even for someone who doesn't believe in God, like me - while not necessarily embracing the spirit of it.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Um, Marduk, not to be mean, but . . . my spiritual level has nothing to do with you. Yes, you post a lot, but that doesn't mean you are changing all of our lives and somehow the sole reason that everyone who posts here is the same kind of liberal Mormon that you see yourself as.

And this thread has made me realize that I really am on the upswing of my testimony level, because I am about to defend the things that made me walk away emotionally a while ago. The thing is, I've always had a thing or two about the Mormon church that didn't quite work in my life. During my most active times, I actively tried to reconcile those. (And by "active", I don't mean how many times I went to church that month. Like Unlucky Stuntman, my spiritual levels dropped below what I acutally did. I've never stopped the "outward appearance" aspect because the last thing I have ever wanted to be was someone's project. But it is a quicker term to use, even if it isn't accurate.)

Anyway, it turns out that once I let myself believe that one commandment didn't apply to me, it was much easier to justify the next one. Sure, the first one wasn't a "thou shalt", just a guideline. The next one wasn't that big a deal either. But the 5th and 6th or so were actually things generally accepted as important rules to follow. And eventually I hit one that comes up frequently in conference as a big deal, and that I probably have to talk to my Bishop about to get a temple recommend again. And the reason that yayfulness's comment on the makeout thread about obedience even when the rule doesn't seem logical is that . . . well, I'm just going to say it. Reading porn was one of the best things that ever happened to my marriage. I saw warning signs and curbed things before it became an addiction, and my husband still talks about how much he liked what it did for us. So cutting that out could only be done by faith, because at the time I just had a "well, maybe this is a problem for other people, so this rule just doesn't apply to me" way of seeing things.

But the point I wanted to make is that all of these concessions had a BIG impact on my spirituality. I guess that makes me the opposite reaction from some people on here, but I could see a direct correlation between how many of my own "adaptations" I was making in my life and how tough it was for me when I was asked to give a talk or figure out what my family needed or anything that required personal revelation and I clearly no longer had promptings from the Holy Ghost. While at first I figured that this rule or that rule wasn't a big deal, they were. Because I got really used to disregarding more and more of what I heard on Sunday.

The real question boils down to this: Do you intend (personally) to obey ALL of Father's commandments?

A point system obviously isn't the way we are going to be judged by our Heavenly Father, and Gio certainly wasn't trying to be a Final Judgement officiator. But at the end of the day, I have come to believe that we can't just make concessions and decide what to applies to us and what doesn't.

And then I just thought of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind, and strength."

Which seems a corollary to "If you love me, keep my commandments."

I had a really interesting discussion with a friend of mine from high school who is very, very devout in her own Christian faith. We found a lot of common ground, but the big difference that stood out to her was that she believe it is up to Christ to save us or not, and that everything we do or don't do is just our way of showing him that we are grateful that he is saving us. To her, the idea that we are in charge of our own salvation was rather presumptuous. That gave me a lot of pause, because at the time, I was about ready to disregard most of the rules. But even when I tried, I just couldn't believe that. I knew it would be laziness in me to just assume I was saved and stop caring that I don't read my scriptures, pray, or obey every commandment every single day. I wanted to, but I just knew it wasn't right.

I hope this isn't coming off as some pretentious testimony as though I'm on the pulpit. But it really is what I have come to find out is true in my life.

[NerdGirl]

I have some thoughts about what makes some commandments more important than me for others, but I have to make this quick because I have to go to school right now. But I think what it comes down to is who is affected if I disobey a particular commandment and how serious are the consequences and how hard is it to make it right. If I don't keep the Sabbath day holy, then I have missed out on something that the Lord gave me so that I could rest and focus on my spirituality (because the Sabbath was made for man and all of that). If I am unkind or dishonest to other people, then that affects me and them and could have long-lasting consequences for everyone involved and I might never be able to make the situation right. Therefore, it's more important to be honest and kind than it is to keep the Sabbath day holy in my view of things.

[krebscout]

Gio, perhaps this can help you understand how one can keep the commandments and still be less orthodox. I scored 18 on your quiz (because I don't care for jell-o and I have not yet received a calling in my new ward). But I've been a good checklist-Mormon my whole life, and I still am. However, the way I've viewed the church has changed so much, it's almost like a different church I attend now.

I have come to view scriptures and prophets differently, and not as infallible sources of light and truth. I have become more of a "cafeteria Mormon" in the sense that there are talks during conference that I absolutely don't believe are inspired (like the Prosperity Doctrine talk from last conference, or the bit that called evolution a joke) or prophetic quotes that are much-loved in Sunday School that I find horrifying (like Elder Packer's "three enemies of the church"). Cue Ezra Taft Benson's "14 Fundamentals" talk, which is also frightening to me. I don't think that talk is entirely in line with the parts of the Church that I really value (such as the emphasis on a personal relationship with God and the entitlement to personal revelation and the Holy Ghost), and it's not even consistent with things taught in the early church. I have also come to believe less and less that our church is the One and Only way, but through prayer and study I've come to have a greater understanding (that satisfies me, not sure if it would for anyone else) of what that means. I have signed a couple petitions that request greater responsibility and decision-making power for women in the church, including female ordination to the priesthood. To quote President Hinckley:

"Interviewer: At present women are not allowed to be priests in your Church...Is it possible that the rules could change in the future?

Gordon B. Hinckley: He could change them yes...But there's no agitation for that. We don't find it."

Is that how it works? And if it's a possibility, why has it gone on so wrong for so long? And why did we withhold the priesthood from black males until decades after the Civil Rights movement? Why was there not a big fat revelation screaming, "THIS IS WRONG. AND DAMAGING"? And, again, I do have my own thoughts about this after bringing some of these questions to God, but I think these answers are the kind of thing that are more satisfying to the person asking than they sound when explained out loud. And I have other questions and doubts, big ones, but probably nothing you haven't heard before. And to a skeptic it probably looks like I'm trying my hardest to make myself feel okay staying in the Church, and I am. The number one reason I stay in the Church right now is because I was raised in it, and for the first time I'm comfortable admitting that. There are also wonderful, wonderful things in the Church that I love and value and believe, and I stay for those reasons, too. I have gotten to the point before where I was ready to leave, though. It's sent me into mourning because I do love this church and it's a huge part of who I am. And right now I'm in a good place, though there are things I still don't understand and have a few problems with. It was liberating when I first heard Joanna Brooks say that she was "doctrinally agnostic about a few things." Like, are we allowed to be that? 16-year-old-Laurel-president-me would not have thought so, but I think I've matured spiritually, and while my mom thinks this whole process is the worst thing that's ever happened, I think it's just that: maturing. Some people just have a rockier adolescence than others, and some people, like me, are somewhere in between.

These are some ways in which somebody can be checklist-perfect but not-so-orthodox.

(edited for spelling and to correct a quote misattribution)

[krebscout]

Okay, I guess Stuntman and 42 kind of went the same direction I did. This is turning into more of a confessional than the make-out thread

By the way, 42, you may be interested in a few episodes of the Mormon Stories podcast that deals with LDS Female Sexuality, and one of the things they specifically address is how helpful shared "erotica" can be within a marriage and the moral implications of it.

[UnluckyStuntman]

Krebscout, do you read the blog The Mormon Childbride? Some of what you expressed reminds me of what she blogs about, and I think you'd enjoy reading it (if you don't already).

[krebscout]

Never heard of it. Thanks, I'll take a look

[Unit of Energy]

I have found that despite the many ups and downs in my life, I'm basically the good little Mormon girl my parents raised. It's not that I haven't questioned. It's not that I'm stuck with the life I was raised in. Over Christmas I had a mini crisis of faith over the week and a half I was in Idaho. In the end I realized that I am where I want to be and I am who I want to be, at least for the moment. I want to be further progressed in my life of course, but given my current circumstances I am where I need to be going in the direction I need to be going. I am an active, trusting, believing Mormon girl, not because I live in Provo, not because it's what my parents expect, not because I need to maintain activity to go to school, but because I have prayed and know that this is right.

[C is for]

One of my favorite CES men has said, "You can tell how people are doing as disciples of Christ by the way they treat others."

I think of that fairly often when I'm measuring my interactions with others. (In general, I don't go out of my way to be friendly and I ... don't like people sometimes.)

But I do think that it helps to keep the commandments, somehow. When I am trying to grow closer to Christ by doing what He has asked me to do (and I guess you do have to believe that the commandments come from God and aren't arbitrary), I am a nicer person. I want to be kind to others. I am more service-minded.

This doesn't necessarily have much to do with what you guys are all discussing (though I am loving the discussion and all of you). I just felt like I had to put my two cents in.

[S.A.M.]

However, there are some things that are declared unequivically that we I don't think we can decide that we disagree with--whether it be loving your neighbor or keeping the Word of Wisdom. Thoughts?

I concur with you, Giovanni. We can't just pick and choose commandments. Many times, though, we need to decide which one is the most important to keep. Adam and Eve had to do this. As a missionary, we are not supposed to watch tv. We are also supposed to teach people about God. For one family, it was necessary to watch part of a soccer match with the father to build trust with him so he would listen to our message. This doesn't mean we can break whatever commandment as a means to some end, but have to use our understanding of their purpose to determine our course of action. Abraham and Nephi were both faced with the dilemma of killing someone. Do you miss church on Sunday to help someone you see on the side of the road on your way there?

All the commandments are based on loving God and loving our neighbor. Sometimes in our desire to keep them, we forget that purpose, and look at them like a checklist:

I'm realizing I need to stop worrying about the checklist so much (not stop doing those things but stop seeing them as the ultimate and only point of my faith) and focusing much more on loving and serving others

Without him to tell me that what I was thinking was actually in tune with the doctrines of the Church, I probably would have left a couple of years ago, driven mad by the culture.

When is saw these comments, I cheered (internally of course, that would have been weird in my cubicle at work). It indicates to me a maturation of understanding. They are not an abandonment of following the commandments, but an understanding of the purpose of the commandments, and hopefully a strengthening of faith to deal with the inanity of some members who are so focused on the appearance of being mormon.

I have a friend that frequently misses meetings, isn't always in a nice shirt and tie, but is always helping some random person. He also struggles with some things. I also know a couple that is totally focused on perfect attendance at church and meetings. They would have scored higher on the poll, but I consider him way more "Mormon". The poll appears to imply that he who keeps the most commandments is the most Mormon.

[Whistler]

I feel similarly to krebscout. My maturation in the Gospel includes recognizing that I disagree with some details about how the Gospel should be interpreted. The Gospel is true, and I feel like the Church is something different that I don't need to have a testimony of. It's full of humans who give their opinions instead of doctrine sometimes.

[Yarjka]

The real question boils down to this: Do you intend (personally) to obey ALL of Father's commandments?

Isn't it a little ironic to use that question, considering it served as the precursor to breaking one of Father's commandments?

[Marduk]

42, thanks for sharing that. I think perhaps I ought to clarify what I've said earlier, as I never desired to imply that I was making everyone here liberal, or something. I think there's probably exactly one person here I've had any sort of influence over the way they actually live their life, but she's already talked about that, and I don't really have anything to say about it. What I meant was that I've worked hard to help make this the sort of space where this sort of discussion CAN happen. There's a lot of people I've invited (ok, pestered) to come and participate on this board, and I've worked hard at moderating it so it is a space where people feel comfortable to be open, and where they feel it is appropriate to the discussion. But maybe I haven't done anything, and this all would've happened without me.

On topic, I've also enjoyed what everyone has to say. I think krebscout really spoke to much of my feelings regarding the matter as well, although I think I agree with the main doctrines and policies of the church more than most here. What I have a problem with is when people (including, occasionally, general authorities, like that evolution joke) make the church more or less than what it is. Like Craig there, talking about abstaining from caffeine. That's a personal decision, and if it is important to him, I applaud him for keeping true to it. But it has nothing to do with the doctrines of the church, merely his personal interpretation of it. I would no more require it of him than I would require what a family I know does with the word of wisdom, which is interpret it to not eat meat (since we never have the famine that is discussed there.) I've known stake presidents who tried to make learning English mandatory to obtaining temple recommends, under some misguided attempt to "follow the law of the land." That is the sort of thing I'm talking about that might make an "orthodox mormon" but in reality has little to do with the church. So what IS keeping all the commandments, Gio? And when I drink my coke have I broken the word of wisdom (the church seems to think not, but many mormons would say so)? When I stay home from church to take care of someone who is sick, am I less orthodox? These decisions, as S.A.M. has pointed out, may make someone a BETTER mormon, not a WORSE mormon, but in the views of a quiz, it makes them worse.

Edited to remove a few typos, and to clarify that I don't think drinking coke can make you a better mormon.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I know I am a little behind in these comments, but I have opinions and darn it you are going to listen to me. (42, to add to what he just said, this is due to Marduk's influence on me personally. And since I have stirred up quite a bit of trouble recently, I don't think anyone can say that he has had no effect or only small effect on the bb.)

I'm curious: Where do you all think the Mormon social stigma that makes someone a "good" or "bad" Mormon comes from? Any thoughts on what may have caused it to evolve beyond the bounds of pure doctrine? Any thoughts on what REALLY makes a "good" or "bad" Mormon? If you (collectively. Not picking on bob.) had made a quiz to potentially define what exactly represents "good" or "bad" Mormon, what would have been your qualifiers? What would you have done differently? Can you think of a better (or more accurate) way to represent the data field that I think I'm going for?

Honestly? I think it comes from exactly what you have tried to do here - quantifying commandments so we can have a checklist to judge ourselves and others by. The breakdown I referred myself having was to was due to a conversation Marduk and I were having with a mutual friend about gay marriage. I told our friend that I found nothing wrong with it, and even supported gay rights, and was then accused of only believing some of the Church's doctrines while disregarding others. To her, because the Church discourages its members from acting on same-sex attraction and once (only once) came out against it politically, it was a sin to even support those rights for those not of our faith. What she could not see was that my support for gay rights comes from my love for my fellow brothers and sisters even as they choose to live in a way I do not agree with, and if that's not a Christlike behavior, what is?

Also, we are becoming like the Israelites of Christ's time, caught up with so many rules that we forget what is truly important. Super big "amen!" to this:

I have a friend that frequently misses meetings, isn't always in a nice shirt and tie, but is always helping some random person. He also struggles with some things. I also know a couple that is totally focused on perfect attendance at church and meetings. They would have scored higher on the poll, but I consider him way more "Mormon". The poll appears to imply that he who keeps the most commandments is the most Mormon.

To follow the confessional trend, there are certain commandments that I cannot keep very well right now. Yes, that's right, cannot. I purposely avoided being interviewed for a recommend to attend the recent temple dedication because I knew that that dedication would be the wrong place for me to be and I did not want to try to explain that to the bishop. I frequently leave during classes or skip classes or even the entirety of church. I am also unable to fast, usually unable to do it even in a modified manner.

I have also made personal choices that may look bad on the outside. My physical relationship with Marduk, while in my opinion perfectly respectful and appropriate, would make any middle-aged RS president swoon. On a smaller scale, I drank caffeine before the Church came out saying it was not against the WOW, I swear, and I don't always agree with the opinions of church leaders.

However, I strive to love my family and friends and all those around me, I frequently pray for everyone I can think of, I have been earnestly studying the scriptures, I have been working very hard to pray more frequently and more sincerely, and I have been working with pretty much everything I have to develop a relationship with our Heavenly Father and use that relationship to continue to seek out and do the things that are good and right. I feel that I am succeeding and becoming a better person due to all of these things (and more, too many to list) even though to someone with a checklist I'm not a very good Mormon. (For the record, I score something like a 10 or 12 on the quiz. Didn't care enough to really figure it out.)

[Marduk]

My physical relationship with Marduk, while in my opinion perfectly respectful and appropriate, would make any middle-aged RS president swoon.

Easy now. Someone might think we've been rubbing our necks together and moaning.