Another question about marriage

[Marduk]

How about marrying two men Portia? Or more?

[bobtheenchantedone]

I have to admit that I can see a lot of benefits to polygamy. I've gone most of my adult life looking pityingly at young mothers out shopping with a child or two and thinking "I hope I never have to do that." But if I don't want be lugging children around stores by myself, I have to have an extra adult to either help me at the store or stay home with the kids.

Other benefits include that I am much happier about cleaning if someone is helping me (not to mention many chores are best done with two or three people), it would prevent craziness/boredom/internet addiction from having no adults to talk to, my husband wouldn't have to stay home from work if I was sick, our household could be earning two incomes or one working and one in school while still always having a parent at home, and I'm kind of enamored of the idea of having someone to gang up with against the husband if he needs ganging up on. : ) I've heard of a polygamous tribe in Africa where all of the women are very well-treated by their husbands, because if a husband messes it up with one woman they all turn on him until he makes things right.

So yeah, I could see myself embracing a polygamous marriage if it were an option.

[Portia]

But if I don't want be lugging children around stores by myself, I have to have an extra adult to either help me at the store or stay home with the kids.

Other benefits include that I am much happier about cleaning if someone is helping me.

There's such a thing as nannies? ... And your husband doesn't necessarily sleep with them.

[Portia]

How about marrying two men Portia? Or more?

I've thought about this, and while there might be benefits to my high sex drive, I can see enough drawbacks to romance and cohesive family life to pass on an open relationship. But I see no reason why consenting polyandry shouldn't be legal.

[bobtheenchantedone]

But if I don't want be lugging children around stores by myself, I have to have an extra adult to either help me at the store or stay home with the kids.

Other benefits include that I am much happier about cleaning if someone is helping me.

There's such a thing as nannies? ... And your husband doesn't necessarily sleep with them.

Someone is used to having discretionary income. ; ) That, to me, seems a waste of money. Even if I do find myself in circumstances where I could afford a nanny (unlikely), I doubt I'd be able to justify the cost - or the downsides. Something I am very concerned about, having come from a somewhat neglectful house, is that my children always have the love, teaching, and attention they need. That's just not something I feel will be achieved with a nanny, or at least not as well as having a second mother/live-in aunt.

[Portia]

But if I don't want be lugging children around stores by myself, I have to have an extra adult to either help me at the store or stay home with the kids.

Other benefits include that I am much happier about cleaning if someone is helping me.

There's such a thing as nannies? ... And your husband doesn't necessarily sleep with them.

Someone is used to having discretionary income. ; ) That, to me, seems a waste of money. Even if I do find myself in circumstances where I could afford a nanny (unlikely), I doubt I'd be able to justify the cost - or the downsides. Something I am very concerned about, having come from a somewhat neglectful house, is that my children always have the love, teaching, and attention they need. That's just not something I feel will be achieved with a nanny, or at least not as well as having a second mother/live-in aunt.

I would not consider the children fathered by my husband with other women to be my children proper. I'd probably resent them. It'd even be hard for me in a more conventional step-mother arrangement. This is coming from someone from a "blended" family which is by and large successful (neither of my biological parents is involved in my life; one is deceased, one might as well be, but I get along great with my adoptive father). I would gladly pony up the bucks for a nanny for my kids and not think twice about it. I loved my non-parental figures in my life (teachers, dance instructors) and think it is healthy for kids to form those kind of bonds outside the home with trusted, caring adults.

What is nursery/primary but one long undertrained nanny program?

[Portia]

And SOMEONE did not have a gazillion children spilling out the rafters. For thirteen years of my life, there were one (1) or two (2) kids in the home. I plan on keeping it at exactly that quota! Then you have the money for tutors and vacations and nice things (assuming the recession ever ends).

[Dragon Lady]

And SOMEONE did not have a gazillion children spilling out the rafters. For thirteen years of my life, there were one (1) or two (2) kids in the home. I plan on keeping it at exactly that quota! Then you have the money for tutors and vacations and nice things (assuming the recession ever ends).

And assuming your husband has a good paying job.

[Portia]

And SOMEONE did not have a gazillion children spilling out the rafters. For thirteen years of my life, there were one (1) or two (2) kids in the home. I plan on keeping it at exactly that quota! Then you have the money for tutors and vacations and nice things (assuming the recession ever ends).

And assuming your husband has a good paying job.

A. I would not reproduce until and unless that is the case.
B. I'm darn well making my own money to make this happen. I have no intention of being a SAHM but harbor no ill-wil against those who do.

[Portia]

I'd be interested to see any research on this question, how being pro-nanny/day care breaks down along liberal/conservative lines. I make no secret of my coastal blue state leanings, and it seems that my attitude towards marriage and childrearing predictably align with the norms of, say, Seattle or San Francisco rather than Salt Lake.

[bobtheenchantedone]

So we have some fundamental differences, Portia.

Money is not as important to me as it seems to be to you. I am quite willing to live on a small income (and currently do), and even if I have a larger one it will likely just mean that my savings account will be larger and I'll splurge on good food more frequently (thanks, Marduk). Also, once children are in the picture, they will be involved in extracurricular music and sports and what have you, with all the attending tutors and costs. I just don't see why I would want to pay someone to come to my house and do my job.

While I no longer want to have as many children as my parents did, I still want to have a few. I anticipate a lot of joy in raising my children (yes, pain too, don't worry I know it's a lot of work) and can't imagine limiting myself to two.

Then there's the issue of polygamy itself, and you seem to have hangups that a lot of people do. However, that just means that you think about it entirely differently from how I do. You talk of your husband having children with some other woman, which children you'd resent, and earlier you mentioned not liking the idea of a husband who could only "do his duty by you" one Tuesday a month. But that's not at all how I would approach a polygamous marriage. It's not me and my husband plus some other woman (who will think of me as the other woman), it's a mutual relationship between the three of us: not only husband-wife and "sister" relationships, but there's also the three of us together. Since it would be a mutual, open, and trusting relationship, there'd be no need to schedule the husband for certain days; we could take things on a case-by-case basis. I could even imagine us all sleeping in the same bed (though sex would still happen privately, and other beds would be available if needed). Any children borne by either wife would be loved by all three of us, though I'm not sure what wording we'd use for the other wife (aunt? stepmother? second mom?)

Let me repeat my main point: it's not me vs. her, it's not someone encroaching on my husband, it's not children I can't bring myself to legitimize because my husband had them with another woman; it's a mutual, loving relationship between three people, with the love extending to include any and all children created within those relationships.

You are of course welcome to have your own opinion, just realize that others do not think the same way you do.

[UnluckyStuntman]

So we have some fundamental differences, Portia ...
I just don't see why I would want to pay someone to come to my house and do my job.

Having a nanny and/or enrolling your child(ren) in a daycare doesn't necessarily mean that other people are doing your job for you. At the end of the day, you're still the parent. Nannies and childcare options can provide (much needed) respite care from parenting and allow for more flexibility in career options for both parents (among other things).

I'll be returning to school soon to finish my Master's Degree, at which point I'll need to arrange for childcare for my son. I'm honestly looking forward to those days when I can leave the house and be child-free for several hours at a time. Even better, I'm hoping that at the end of the day when I go to pick him up, I'll actually be excited to see him and spend time with him, instead of burying my stress and resentment from being supermom 24/7.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I talked about this very issue with Marduk today, and it turns out that I was not really expressing myself clearly, mostly because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to say. (Yay for trying to express opinions I haven't fully formulated!) The thing is that I've always envisioned being a SAHM or, more recently, a work-from-home mom, and have even found myself giving homeschooling for a year or two some serious thought. Also, for me personally turning over child care to a non-parent for large periods of time like that is not something that I feel comfortable with. Something about my four-year-old sister being "babysat" by my brother but really babysitting herself with the TV or wandering off to a neighbor's house without anyone noticing or caring turns me off to the idea of hands-off parenting. Also, my own difficult relationship with my parents makes me want to try a bit harder with my own children, which involves being a lot more present than they were (and they never even seriously considered daycare, as to them it was outrageously expensive and even a little morally wrong.)

Something I would be comfortable with is having my sister live close by (or possibly even live with me and my husband) and have her watch children when needed: she's got to be close because we're in business together, and she would really be an aunt to my children, so it's more fostering a relationship with a close relative than paying some stranger I background-checked and interviewed to watch my kids.

Of course, all of that is assuming no polygamy, in which case everything is easier: extra parent. Also, just because I'm not comfortable with a nanny or daycare of course does not mean that they're wrong for everyone. My point was both that I would not choose them at all if I could help it, and to me contrasting them with polygamy only shows their downsides more starkly. Obviously some consider that a radical way of thinking, but to me, with my personality, life goals, and intentions for my future married/parental life, these are the options that make the most sense to me.

Arg. I'd much rather have this conversation in person. It's much easier to have the constant back-and-forth than keep writing novels and hoping my meaning is clear.

[UnluckyStuntman]

... for me personally turning over child care to a non-parent for large periods of time like that is not something that I feel comfortable with. Something about my four-year-old sister being "babysat" by my brother but really babysitting herself with the TV or wandering off to a neighbor's house without anyone noticing or caring turns me off to the idea of hands-off parenting. Also, my own difficult relationship with my parents makes me want to try a bit harder with my own children, which involves being a lot more present than they were (and they never even seriously considered daycare, as to them it was outrageously expensive and even a little morally wrong.)

Something I would be comfortable with is having my sister live close by (or possibly even live with me and my husband) and have her watch children when needed: she's got to be close because we're in business together, and she would really be an aunt to my children, so it's more fostering a relationship with a close relative than paying some stranger I background-checked and interviewed to watch my kids.

(emphasis mine)

Okay, I know I'm nit-picking here, but I just wanted to point out that utilizing childcare is not a parenting style. It's a tool that parents use to negotiate work, lifestyles, sanity, etc. "Hands-off parenting" is not the same thing as having a nanny or using a daycare.

Obviously, you're not interested in using a nanny - and I'm not interested in changing your mind - but I feel that I need to address that last paragraph quoted above anyway. It's true that many families find nannies online, through word-of-mouth recommendations, or through agencies, and that finding a care provider this way would necessitate interviewing and researching strangers. But on the flip side, many families also use people they already know. I nannied for two different families that I knew well through church. My sister nannies for one of my husband's doctors that we got to know when he was hospitalized for the better part of last winter. My point is that there are LOTS of ways to find nannies and other child care providers, and that each comes with its own inherent frustrations and risks, but that one method is not necessarily more correct than another (in terms of generalizations, at least, since every parent will of course have a preferred method of securing childcare).

These misconceptions about care work are a huge pet peeve of mine. Every family is different, and if you prefer to be the primary care provider for your children, then rock on. Stay-at-home and work-at-home parents are valuable and generally under-appreicated for all of the hard work that they do, but that lifestyle doesn't work / isn't desirable for every family.

[TheBlackSheep]

And hey, you know, I have spent a long time running therapeutic "daycare" and I was offered more than one job as a nanny, so I'm a huge proponent of the benefits of non-parent childcare, as far as they exist, for both the parents and kids. Lots of thoughts.

1. Some of the moms I worked with were pathetic moms in the ways that moms from any socioeconomic level can be pathetic moms. Some were fair or even good moms. Many of the kids had super-awesome family (grandparents, aunts/uncles, whatever) that they could have been spending their days with. I still believe that every child I ever worked with had positive outcomes as a result of being in our program. And I believe that every mom benefited from having her child/ren in our program.

2. Except in very, very extreme cases (we're talking reactive attachment disorder), no child ever had their relationship with their mother hurt by spending 35-40 hours a week with me. At the end of the day, their moms were their moms, and they were always beyond excited to see them. (Even in those extreme cases, the relationship wasn't hurt. It just continued to suck.) Of course, the kiddos also formed positive relationships with me and their other childcare providers, and the literature shows that any stable and caring relationships a kid forms strengthen their ability to form healthy attachments.

3. Lots and lots of childcare options exist that do not in any way constitute hands-off parenting. Any childcare professional worth his/her salt looks at developing the whole child. Childcare is not about keeping the child alive until the mom returns. Childcare is about helping the child develop skills (social, emotional, motor, verbal, cognitive), structure, and relationships. I'm sure there exist daycares that have the kids watch television all day. Avoid those ones. Easy peasy.

4. The literature supports the idea that children who spend even a few hours a week in a childcare setting are far advanced over their peers in social skills, emotional regulation, etc. and are therefore better prepared for school/other social settings.

5. The literature also supports the idea that parents who enroll their children in childcare for even a few hours a week are often more, not less, involved with their children due to the benefits of respite care.

6. Many mothers and I formed a relationship of teamwork. There are four ways to measure attachment (nurturing, engaging, structure, and appropriate challenging). I am super super awesome at structure (things like consequences, routine, problem solving, supporting emotional regulation, etc.) and the moms were super super awesome at nurturing. I would let them know what kinds of structure helped their kids which reduced their frustration with their children and upped their ability to nurture. They would let me know how they nurtured their children which reduced their children's anxiety and negative emotions and made it easier for me to provide structure. The result: less acting out, two more calm adults, and a child who knew that s/he was cared about in every aspect of his/her life.

I'm not saying that every child needs to be in childcare. I'm just saying that it is professionally offensive to me to assume that all children who are in daycare are less cared about or less well parented than children who are not, or to assume that all childcare constitutes hands-off parenting. I'm a darn fine "parent," much finer, in my own estimation, than most people's close family members, especially in an environment where there is more than one child.

On a different tack, what you, bob, have described are modern poly (not open,etc.) relationships, which of course do exist.

[Whistler]

if you are interested some of the research on the subject this guy summarized one longitudinal study: http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/ ... -of-day-c/

[bobtheenchantedone]

Which is why I would prefer to have this as an in-person conversation. I was doing my best to make clear my own, personal reasons for wanting to avoid a nanny or daycare, and to make very clear that I know my opinions are not everyone's and that nannies and daycare can be very beneficial to many families. I am personally turned off to the idea due to my upbringing, and would be too afraid of using these resources for fear that I would be doing it for the wrong reasons, but that does not at all mean that anyone else would be.

Also, through long observation and lots of deep thinking there are specific ways in which I would like to raise my children, which may not be well fostered in at least a daycare environment, and I wonder if even bringing a nanny in would work well. For example, how do I explain to a nanny that Santa doesn't exist in my household, much less try to prevent the unhappiness that will arise if my children tell the other daycare children how we think of Santa?

As a side note, I feel a tiny bit hypocritical typing this up as I am currently hiding in the computer room from the dozen children running around the house, but as none of them are mine I feel fine being annoyed by them. : )

[S.A.M.]

I've also heard various roommates/single's ward Sunday School teachers say there will have to be polygamy in the next life because there are so many more righteous women than men.

When this came up, I immediately thought of these articles that I had read in the past, but I only now found them again -

There will likely be plenty enough men to go around: http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/12/01/i ... ics-again/

Steve references this article: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_86.pdf

This speculates that if anything, we may be looking at a shortage of women up there!

[Stego Lily]

For all of those wondering what ended up going down with this question, I was the one who asked it. And we ended up breaking up for reasons entirely unrelated to religion. Anticlimactic, I know.

[mic0]

For all of those wondering what ended up going down with this question, I was the one who asked it. And we ended up breaking up for reasons entirely unrelated to religion. Anticlimactic, I know.

Sigh! Just kidding. Well, this just stands as a testament that religion isn't the only reason or always even the best reason to break up with someone. Also, sometimes life is anticlimactic.