talking about race - 70775

[Whistler]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/70775/#comments

I'm surprised that the questioner feels like "race does not matter at all." Sure, bringing it up out of the blue is inappropriate, but it's something that people notice and might be racist about. Sometimes I wish our appearances didn't matter at all too, but we can't just ignore differences.

I guess I find the "let's all be colorblind" approach to race idealistic and shortsighted. Race and skin tone have lots of baggage, but the way to change it isn't to ignore it, but to acknowledge our assumptions and actively try to change them.

[Marduk]

This: "really feel like race does not matter at all."

does not match up with this: "it makes me feel uncomfortable."

Clearly, the fact that it makes someone so uncomfortable is evidence that it DOES matter to her.

It is, in fact, HER race. And she ought to own it. Be proud of it. Race is part of heritage and lineage, and she ought to make it part of her. It will ALWAYS be part of her, and although she shouldn't be judged worse for it, it is a part of who she is. Being uncomfortable talking about it makes it seem like it is a problem, so just own it, because it isn't a problem.

By the same token, "I think it's inappropriate for a stranger to talk about your race—ever." is, quite frankly, a load of crap. Why is it inappropriate? Is it inappropriate to talk about someone's gender? Their sexuality? Their religion? Race is an inseperable part of who we are, and those who want to stop talking about it, or ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist are the ones holding back racial equality.

ETA: I'm sure most of the veterans on here are aware, but for the new people, just for the record, this is coming from someone who is bi-racial. I own it. I'm proud of it.

[mic0]

By the same token, "I think it's inappropriate for a stranger to talk about your race—ever." is, quite frankly, a load of crap. Why is it inappropriate? Is it inappropriate to talk about someone's gender? Their sexuality? Their religion? Race is an inseparable part of who we are, and those who want to stop talking about it, or ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist are the ones holding back racial equality.

Personally, I don't think you should talk to a stranger about race, religion, sexuality, or gender, unless you are in a situation that really calls for it (I don't know, a meeting about that subject, maybe). Is it so wrong not to want to talk about things that feel personal to oneself? It sounds like this person is tired of strangers/mere acquaintances making unwarranted comments about her race. Going along with the theme of owning one's race, it's her race, she gets to decide who talks about it.

[Edited some misspellings so you all think I'm smarter than I am!]

[UffishThought]

Depending on how you do it, though, I'm not against strangers asking questions. I think if they genuinely want to know, and ask respectfully, then it shouldn't be offensive.

[Eirene]

By the same token, "I think it's inappropriate for a stranger to talk about your race—ever." is, quite frankly, a load of crap. Why is it inappropriate? Is it inappropriate to talk about someone's gender? Their sexuality? Their religion? Race is an inseparable part of who we are, and those who want to stop talking about it, or ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist are the ones holding back racial equality.

Personally, I don't think you should talk to a stranger about race, religion, sexuality, or gender, unless you are in a situation that really calls for it (I don't know, a meeting about that subject, maybe). Is it so wrong not to want to talk about things that feel personal to oneself? It sounds like this person is tired of strangers/mere acquaintances making unwarranted comments about her race. Going along with the theme of owning one's race, it's her race, she gets to decide who talks about it.

[Edited some misspellings so you all think I'm smarter than I am!]

Agreed. Nobody's saying that those subjects can never be talked about by anyone, but I definitely think it's rude (unprompted, especially) to bring up the personal race, religion, or sexuality of a total stranger.

[No Dice]

I think Eirene and Mico said nicely what I was getting at. I think many of those topics (gender, sexuality, etc.) aren't really appropriate for conversation with a stranger, but race seems especially so. I'm not quite sure what it is about it.

On the racial equality point, it actually seems like the questioner would feel more equal if people would stop bringing up their race in ways that they seem to feel are condescending (that's certainly how I would interpret "I like skin like yours" or "I served my mission in South Africa [and met other people who look like you]). I have a hard time thinking those sorts of comments are appropriate in conversation with a stranger, and I have a hard time coming up with some test to describe which comments about race are appropriate in conversation with a stranger of a different race.

Also, I don't think that we can pretend that all comments to a stranger about race are equal. If I (a Caucasian) went up to someone with fair skin and blue eyes and said, "Oh, I like skin like yours! I served my mission in Norway," that seems pretty different to me from going up to an African-American and saying "Oh, I like skin like yours! I served my mission in Ghana." Perhaps I'm just trapped in post-80s-political-correctness, but that doesn't seem right. And the questioner seems to not agree.

[Marduk]

I suppose it depends on your definition of stranger. Because I doubt that people are really going up to her on the street and telling her these things. More than likely, it is in a classroom (or work) situation where she has seen the person a few times, maybe interacted in a group setting before, or even been introduced once or twice. However, this is something that white culture seems to perpetuate, that most other cultures don't (that I'm well acquainted with; Eastern cultures might be similar;) a closed-off attitude towards others. This is part of why white people often come off so awkwardly in conversations about race; they've grown up in a culture (as the question asker did, despite her skin color) where they've been told such things are taboo.

If you've ever seen non-white people of different backgrounds get together, questions about an individuals culture/race are treated with the same gravitas as, say, a question about one's major. Perhaps this is just a problem of white people needing to be less closed off.

[thatonemom]

This: "really feel like race does not matter at all."

does not match up with this: "it makes me feel uncomfortable."

Clearly, the fact that it makes someone so uncomfortable is evidence that it DOES matter to her.

Maybe I totally read her question wrong, but I assumed she meant that she didn't feel different or "other" because of her race, but that random people's comments pointing out her race are what made her feel uncomfortable. I honestly think it really is random people saying stuff like that, because it's happened to me here in Provoland. (I have dark hair & olive skin. And my maiden name was fairly ethnic. I had a kid in one of my classes compliment me on how well I spoke English. Yeah. I'm a native English speaker)

I feel like when differences are a non-issue for people, they just aren't brought up. No one comes up to left-handed people and says, "We adopted a left-handed child." Or "I served a mission among the left-handed people." Sincere curiosity is one thing, but the examples from the question felt patronizing to me. Again, maybe I read it wrong. But I think those kind of comments are insensitive, at best.

[Zedability]

I had a kid in one of my classes compliment me on how well I spoke English. Yeah. I'm a native English speaker

I had someone say that to me after finding out I'm Canadian. I wasn't sure how to respond to that.

[mic0]

She does say it is mostly "old people in the Provo temple." Maybe she's seen them more than once, maybe not. My mom loves to comment on people's ethnicity (to them, in a complimentary way) and it made me uncomfortable most of my life because I felt like it was somehow invasive. I have no idea how the receiving people felt about it, of course. I would hope they would speak up if they felt bothered, which is what this girl should do.

Marduk, I think I understand where you're coming from. Honestly, I probably have less inter-cultural experience than you, but I don't feel like I'm particularly closed off about things. I'm not trying to make this a personal issue or anything, just trying to make sure we both get our points across, you know? So, anyway, here's an anecdote. Last semester I met this girl who (1) had a Chinese name, (2) had zero accent, (3) was in my program and we hung out on the weekends. I wanted to ask her about her ethnicity/background because I studied Chinese and also because I like hearing about people's lives (why else did I spend many dates with Mr. Mico just asking him about Russia before even accepting we were dating?). But I didn't want to just bring up her ethnicity out of no where! What if she was adopted by white Americans who just named her something Chinese? How do I know?

Then last week it came up naturally in conversation. We were talking about meanings of names and it came up, I mentioned I know a bit about Chinese, and then I felt like there was no problem talking about it. Similarly, I wanted to ask another friend about her religious background but it hadn't come up naturally in conversation. By naturally, I mean I could totally steer the conversation that way, and one day I did. But I wasn't going to just jump into our new friendship with hard hitting questions.

Most white Americans don't care to talk about their race probably because it is a distant thing. Yeah, I'm Scottish and German. So what? There is nothing about me, my parents, or my grandparents that is particularly Scottish or German (my grandfather might disagree with that, but the point is it hasn't been a determining factor in my life). For you, race is a big part of your life because (correct me if I'm wrong) one of your parents is Mexican and the other is from the U.S. and so you get a big dose of each culture. But, I guess you and I see "closed off" differently. I feel like it is one thing to be closed off about race/religion/other personal subjects upon first meeting, but once it comes up in a friendship then it is fine to talk about.

One last thought before I finally submit this wall of text is that the young woman in the question can feel however she wants about her own race, and she can change her mind about it, too. It is great to talk about this stuff theoretically, but that doesn't change the fact that individuals have various feelings.

[ETA: And what if a person is a fifth generation [other country here, I don't know, Indian person] but they no longer have any connection to their Indian ethnicity? What if, like me, they feel pretty much American, but their race is obviously not "white" so they get questions? I meant to put this earlier where it made sense.]

[NerdGirl]

I had a kid in one of my classes compliment me on how well I spoke English. Yeah. I'm a native English speaker

I had someone say that to me after finding out I'm Canadian. I wasn't sure how to respond to that.

Someone at BYU once asked me if Canada was in Idaho.

[UffishThought]

Hee. I met a guy a while back who was born in India, and definitely looked like it, but was adopted by a Provo couple when he was 3 months. I don't remember how it came up--I think I may have been fairly direct and tied in my love of Bollywood--and he told me some awkward stories of people trying to figure out his ethnicity. And he has a lot of fun watching them squirm, it sounds like.

"Where are you from?"
"Provo."
"No, I mean, where did you grow up?"
"Provo."
"Uh, where were your parents from?"
"Provo."
"Where did they from, though?"
"Oh! Idaho."

And I know this isn't a race thing, but it reminds me of a conversation with one of my ASL professors. She was shocked that none of the class would approach a blind person to ask them about being blind, or a black person about being black, or go up to a deaf person to chat with them because we'd learned a little bit of sign language. We tried to explain that we were worried we'd violate some taboo that we weren't aware of, and so it was easier to just avoid people like that, but to her, it didn't make sense. People are people, and the best way to learn if there's a taboo is to get to know someone and ask questions, and to live your life in fear of the offense that it's possible (but unlikely) you might give is to live your life foolishly. And personally, I've found that when I ask my gay friend questions about what it's life to be gay, or ask my black friend if she feels that people treat her any differently, they're happy to share their experiences with someone who is interested in finding out the truth, instead of jumping to conclusions.

I'm not advocating chasing strangers down to grill them on their race, and I would hate for every conversation I have be about my race or haircolor or height or any of that, too. But I think if you're fairly socially aware, you can ask a few questions of a new acquaintance before you're great friends, and it doesn't have to be insulting or annoying. And the more we're ready to learn about each other instead of guess, the less we'll need to make a big deal of race or ability or any of that.

[Katya]

I had a kid in one of my classes compliment me on how well I spoke English. Yeah. I'm a native English speaker

I had someone say that to me after finding out I'm Canadian. I wasn't sure how to respond to that.

Someone at BYU once asked me if Canada was in Idaho.

Only if Idaho is bigger on the inside (like the Tardis).

[krebscout]

And I know this isn't a race thing, but it reminds me of a conversation with one of my ASL professors. She was shocked that none of the class would approach a blind person to ask them about being blind, or a black person about being black, or go up to a deaf person to chat with them because we'd learned a little bit of sign language. We tried to explain that we were worried we'd violate some taboo that we weren't aware of, and so it was easier to just avoid people like that, but to her, it didn't make sense.

As a mom of a visibly (though mildly) disabled child, I love it when kids ask my son about his hearing aids, and he likes talking about them, and I'm sad when their parents hush them up. I don't want him to be embarrassed by it or think other people find it embarrassing. And every other parent that I've talked to in a comparable situation feels the same way.

[Portia]

Also, I don't think that we can pretend that all comments to a stranger about race are equal. If I (a Caucasian) went up to someone with fair skin and blue eyes and said, "Oh, I like skin like yours! I served my mission in Norway,"

As a fair-skinned blue-eyed person, I would be doubly weirded out if a stranger said this, given both the historical fetishization of these features and the fact that I have no Norwegian antecedents.

[Portia]

Most white Americans don't care to talk about their race probably because it is a distant thing. Yeah, I'm Scottish and German. So what? There is nothing about me, my parents, or my grandparents that is particularly Scottish or German (my grandfather might disagree with that, but the point is it hasn't been a determining factor in my life). For you, race is a big part of your life because (correct me if I'm wrong) one of your parents is Mexican and the other is from the U.S. and so you get a big dose of each culture. But, I guess you and I see "closed off" differently. I feel like it is one thing to be closed off about race/religion/other personal subjects upon first meeting, but once it comes up in a friendship then it is fine to talk about.

[ETA: And what if a person is a fifth generation [other country here, I don't know, Indian person] but they no longer have any connection to their Indian ethnicity? What if, like me, they feel pretty much American, but their race is obviously not "white" so they get questions? I meant to put this earlier where it made sense.]

As the proverbial sixth-generation Scottish-American, I feel closer and more invested in my homeland than a second-generation Chinese-American guy I went out with. I love the history, landscape, and especially, dance [of Scotland], whereas he didn't identify with Chinese culture whatsoever. There are other factors besides immigration dates at play.

[mic0]

As the proverbial sixth-generation Scottish-American, I feel closer and more invested in my homeland than a second-generation Chinese-American guy I went out with. I love the history, landscape, and especially, dance [of Scotland], whereas he didn't identify with Chinese culture whatsoever. There are other factors besides immigration dates at play.

Word. People are different, it's great. (And if we're being totally honest, I love Scotland as well and my grandfather does a lot of family history for our Scottish ancestors. It's not something I think about everyday, though, which was my point. And if you do, that's great, just sayin' my experience.)

[Portia]

As the proverbial sixth-generation Scottish-American, I feel closer and more invested in my homeland than a second-generation Chinese-American guy I went out with. I love the history, landscape, and especially, dance [of Scotland], whereas he didn't identify with Chinese culture whatsoever. There are other factors besides immigration dates at play.

Word. People are different, it's great. :) (And if we're being totally honest, I love Scotland as well and my grandfather does a lot of family history for our Scottish ancestors. It's not something I think about everyday, though, which was my point. And if you do, that's great, just sayin' my experience.)

I do think about it a ... n unusual amount. My current boyfriend's last name is Scottish, and he went there for his graduation trip. When people asked him "Why Scotland?" he responded, "Why not Scotland?" Like Dadfulness's's piano, it was instantly attractive.

[TheAnswerIs42]

And I know this isn't a race thing, but it reminds me of a conversation with one of my ASL professors. She was shocked that none of the class would approach a blind person to ask them about being blind, or a black person about being black, or go up to a deaf person to chat with them because we'd learned a little bit of sign language. We tried to explain that we were worried we'd violate some taboo that we weren't aware of, and so it was easier to just avoid people like that, but to her, it didn't make sense.

As a mom of a visibly (though mildly) disabled child, I love it when kids ask my son about his hearing aids, and he likes talking about them, and I'm sad when their parents hush them up. I don't want him to be embarrassed by it or think other people find it embarrassing. And every other parent that I've talked to in a comparable situation feels the same way.

Yes, but I also don't want people to ONLY see my son's disability. I remember when my cousin was telling a story about a little boy she knows. Her friends have triplets, and one of them is autistic. And it didn't matter that the story had nothing to do with his disability, she still clarified that it was the autistic one that she was talking about. It was a label. I don't my son identified by his disability any more than anyone would want to be "the girl in the wheelchair" or this girl wants to be "the black girl." Being labeled like that separates people and emphasizes a particular characteristic, and I think this girl just doesn't see herself as different because of her race, and probably wants to be known for other things instead. I certainly feel that way about my son. Maybe Marduk does want to be identified by his race, since it is a big part of who he is, but clearly this girl does not. That doesn't make her ashamed of it.

The answer from No Dice was great though. A courteous response, but still lets them know where she stands.

[Portia]

The answer from No Dice was great though. A courteous response, but still lets them know where she stands.

I think this is a talent of No Dice in general. She gave the best response to the gas money comment.