#73267 - Trans sibling

[Imogen]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2013/ ... r_men.html

pertinent

[TheBlackSheep]

**NOTE: As I have frequently said, there are MANY ways to express a trans gender identity. There are many more ways to express it than the most well-known case, which is to be a person who feels that their gender is the one commonly associated with the opposite sex. This response mostly deals with that case, but that is not the only case there is, by a long shot.**

Not that that necessarily even matters to you, TBS...

I just want to make it clear that anything related to queer folk in Mormondom matters to me an incredible amount. Anything that makes it better or signals that it could get better matters to me an incredible amount. Almost 100% of my ancestors from a certain time period were Mormon pioneers, and almost 100% of my extensive extended family is very, very active in the church. This is still my culture, and I still care about its healthfulness. I still have a TBM voice in my head, which ranges from very healthy to incredible self-hatred, especially on some of these topics. I was a terrified closeted 13-year-old queer kid. I may be an agnostic who never goes to church, but I'm still a Mormon, and I'm almost as invested in Mormondom as I am in supporting the queer community or supporting kids. So, you know, for the record.

Being trans may not give one power, but cross-dressing certainly can and has. Shakespeare played with this in a lot of interesting ways.

Yeah, cross-dressing and being trans are not even comparable. Historically, cross-dressing may have been used to get power over one's status related to sex, but modern cross-dressing mostly has to do with exploring gender norms for sexual gratification. In any case, the cross-dresser sees him- or herself as a person of one sex wearing the opposite sex's clothes. That is the entire point. The transperson dressed in clothes that are commonly associated with the sex opposite their own feels that they are wearing their own gender's appropriate set of clothes.

... although the argument still bothers me, as it is too deterministic. I do think that this wild crazy world of sex/gender identity/behavior does involve choice, and that that's beautiful. I can go choose to make out with a woman if I wanted to, though I likely wouldn't and never have. I don't feel like I was, like, destined to want to have sex with dudes or present as a woman, and I guess I can imagine my me-ness in plenty of different ways.

Sure, but that is your experience, and your experience alone. I can't imagine my being overly positive that I was meant to be male, though I have also never felt I was absolutely meant to be female. But I am comfortable as a female, so all that means is that I'm cis. I do not find relationships or sex with a man to be hugely off-putting for any social, emotional, or sexual reason, though I would prefer to be with women most of the time. All that means is that I'm not a lesbian. It isn't fair for me to generalize either of those experiences and declare that I suppose I could have chosen to express my gender in a more masculine way, so everyone has that choice, or that boys aren't THAT gross so lesbians aren't REALLY 100% lesbian. All you can go off of is what people tell you. Talk to some trans people, and they will tell you. And I think it is easier to tell the state of things when something is wrong. You're straight and cis, in a culture where it is expected and desirable to be straight and cis? Great! No need to even wonder what's going on. You're trans and/or gay? Something's wrong there, buddy, and I bet it's you.

[TheBlackSheep]

**Same disclaimer applies.**

I think the way the Proclamation is worded leaves some wiggle room. It states that "gender is an essential characteristic of premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." No mention of chromosomes or anatomy in there anywhere. The way I interpret it, your spirit has a gender expression, and that is going to stay the same through eternity. I don't think that necessarily excludes the possibility that in mortality, your body's sex might not match your spirt's gender.

I love this interpretation, and this is the way I would choose to interpret it if I were still active. My only problem with it is that I doubt that the Brethren who wrote the Proclamation meant anything different when they used the term gender versus the term sex. Most people my age who are from more conservative backgrounds aren’t aware that there is any difference in the way that people use them. So even if the Proclamation is inspired, I have difficulty believing that that is what the Brethren meant, even if it is what I would hope it means.

I didn't understand one part of the situation, and would love some insights. Ze (I hope I'm using these right, sorry if I'm not) identifies as male, is in a female body, and is attracted to males. So ze is trans gay?

First of all, SMS, I appreciate your openness very much. And yes, if ze identifies as both masculine and is attracted to men, ze would be both trans and gay, though gay might not be the label that ze chooses.

What sorts of things would clue zer into the fact that ze is trans? I wasn't immediately comfortable with my female body as it began to develop. I actually hated the fact that I was growing breasts. I was humiliated when I actually had to purchase my first bra. But I am most certainly female. I identify as a woman and am happy with my woman's body. I understand that trans-sexuality isn't a phase. It's not a choice most people would willingly make, either. However, I don't understand how a 13 year old can be that sure of their sexuality. Maybe this is my delayed awareness showing through. I didn't have a casual crush until I was 16.

Well, first of all, being trans has nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with gender. Like I said in response to Portia, I think it is a lot easier to identify exactly what a situation is when something is wrong. So, for an example that does relate to sexuality, I may not have been able to tell you I was queer when I was 11, but I could tell you that something was not normal. By 13, I knew I was predominantly attracted to women, even if I never had an active crush on one until I was about 15. Many girls feel very uncomfortable with the changes to their bodies when they go through puberty. The difference between that and going through puberty as a transman (which is, apparently, what ze is) is that, while an uncomfortable young woman would notice her breasts growing with active discomfort or even distaste, a transman might look down at his body, half-expecting to see chest hair, widening shoulders, and a developing penis and scrotum, only to find growing breasts and expanding hips that make no sense there. That is what is meant by dysphoria.

Those of us who are cisgender experience privilege that predisposes us to not comprehending that there is different than we are. Cisgender privilege says that I was born with two X chromosomes, so I am feminine, and there is no other way. If I am comfortable in that paradigm, there is no reason to examine it. There is no reason why 13-year-old me would even be aware that there is a reason to say, Okay, I feel comfortable that my gender and sex are a good fit for each other. If you are transgender, you know something is wrong with that paradigm and so you have to find out what it is. Most transgender people put their finger on it at the beginning of puberty because that is when their body ceases to be asexual enough that the dysphoria can be ignored, or at least this is my understanding.

And SBS, yes, if the 13 year old as an adult considers werfself a gay man, I understand that's how one should treat werf. However, if other gay men prefer a cos gay man with male anatomy, or straight men prefer a gender that matches her birth sex, I wouldn't fault them, personally. I've read enough Savage Love to know that gay & trans men aren't necessarily on the same page.

I’m an avid Savage Love reader, or at least I am in waves, and Savage Love is not the place to get information on trans folks. Trans people frequently disagree with Dan Savage’s interpretation of their situation. I try to get information straight from the group of people themselves. Also, ain’t nobody arguing that people should love who they love. They should just make sure they are checking their biases, because everyone should check their biases.

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

Thanks TBS, I appreciate the explanation. It makes more sense now.

[UnluckyStuntman]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2013/ ... r_men.html

pertinent

That is a beautiful photo series, thank you for sharing it.

[NerdGirl]

TBS, I loved what you wrote. And Stego Lily, I thought that was a great answer and I have always felt the same way about interpreting the family proclamation (although I agree with TBS that that's probably not how they intended it, but I'm not so much interested in how they intended it). Personally, I am very feminine. I strongly identify with that end of the gender spectrum. I feel like i have always been a woman and I will always be a woman. I am privileged to have been born with a female body that matches my female gender. Not everyone is born with a body that matches their gender. I have some friends and acquaintances who are transgender, and they have always felt from the time they were very young (like toddler age, or as far back as they can remember) that they had bodies that didn't match their gender. It's not a teenage phase that people go through and it's not something people grow out of. It's something very fundamental that people just seem to know. It's hard for us who are cisgender to imagine wanting to have the body of the opposite sex because that's not what we want and that's not who we are. I can't imagine wanting to have a male body. However, it is an interesting thought experiment to imagine it the other way. If you are a cisgender woman, try to imagine what it would be like if you had a male body (and vice versa if you are a cisgender man). I realize that gender is more of a spectrum than a binary and that it can be more complicated than this, but just go with me for a second. If I had a male body, I would still be a woman. I would not want to live my life as a man. I don't know if I would want to have surgery or not, but I would certainly want to present myself to the world as a woman. Having a male body wouldn't change the fact that my spirit is female. So who I am to tell someone else what their gender is? I am the expert on where I am on the gender spectrum. Other people, including transgender people, are the only ones who get to tell us what their gender is. We don't get to decide or tell anyone they are wrong about that.

[vorpal blade]

How does one determine one's gender? What does a very feminine person feel or think that I as a masculine male do not think or feel?

The younger sister in this question is very athletic, prefers playing rough with the boys, hates girls and doesn't identify with them, refuses to wear girl clothes, has few female friends, wants short hair, would rather die than wear a clip or a headband, and hates manicures. Who in the world told her these were masculine characteristics? I've known lots of girls like that and I still consider them very feminine.

[TheBlackSheep]

That is behavior that the older sister has observed, but I guarantee you that that is not the extent of the younger sibling's feelings. Gender is more of a spectrum than an absolute, and so everyone's experience of it is different. All I can tell you is that I have known enough trans people to believe that when someone knows they are trans, it is a different experience from being cis.

[The Black Ram]

I’ve really never understood the Church’s position against “alternative” or non-traditional living arrangements. Given (as I understand it) the LDS church is based in Polygamy and fought for years to expand the definition of marriage to include more than one wife under freedom of religion, how can you then argue against another person’s version of love and identity? Vorpal I really appreciate your last post in acknowledging that we don’t have good guidance on how to evaluate gender and sexuality. Additionally acknowledging that it doesn’t matter what their choice is and you can accept them as they are, secure in both their choices and your faith, encourages me that religion doesn’t have to be an “Us vs. Them” situation.

[vorpal blade]

I'm glad you appreciated my last remarks, Black Ram.

In regard to polygamy, I wouldn't say that our religion is based in polygamy. Polygamy had been an accepted form of marriage for thousands of years including among the Old Testament prophets, and the command to practice polygamy in our day and age is really not a key aspect of our religion. At the time we practiced polygamy it was widely practiced in non-Christian parts of the world, and was practiced among the Native Americans. The fight was with modern-day Christians who opposed traditional polygamous marriages.

In some ways I find it puzzling that people should decide that they are a male in a female body, or a female in a male body. Throughout the world there are so many different stereotypes of gender that it makes you wonder how they decided they were a gender different from their sex. I've asked what makes a very feminine person feel or think in a way that I do not feel and think, and I haven't gotten an answer. The desire to wear "boy's clothes" does not make your gender masculine anymore than the desire to wear a kilt makes a Scotsman feminine.

The insistence that when someone knows they are trans it is different experience from being cis got me to wondering. Why should we automatically take on face value what a person thinks they are?

That’s when I stumbled upon the therianthropes, or therians. See http://therian-guide.com/forum/portal.php A therianthrope is someone who truly believes he is earthen animal. There are many ideas as to why the person believes he or she is a therianthrope. Some believe that at birth the body because inhabited by the soul of an animal that just died. Some believe it is just an identity disorder, or just something about the complexity of the brain.

How do you know you are a therian? Therians tell us that when you are one, you just are, it is your identity. “If you are a Therianthrope, you will know it. There is a familiar feeling with the animal, and a feeling of ‘this is who I am’ some describe it as a certain feeling you get in your chest, an uplifting feeling of relief when you see your therio-type.”

Therians tell us that they begin to know their therio-type around the ages of 10-16, but they can exhibit the tendencies at an earlier age. “Having strong dreams, visions, emotions, thoughts, and behavior that link you to an animal are common signals that most therians claim to notice in the beginning of their discovery.”

In psychiatry the belief of being part animal has been generally associated with severe psychosis, but not always with any specific psychiatric diagnosis or neurological findings (see Wikipedia article). Others consider it a delusion in the sense of the self-identity disorder found in affective and schizophrenic disorders. Or it may be a symptom of other psychiatric disorders.

The dictionary links theriantrophy to gender identity issues.

I wonder if the day will come when insurance companies will be forced to pay for operations attaching long bushy tails to those that just know that they are squirrels.

[The Black Ram]

I wonder if the day will come when insurance companies will be forced to pay for operations attaching long bushy tails to those that just know that they are squirrels.

OMG, best laugh I’ve had in a while. Though, on a serious note I would hope that we can all respect what each individual feels in his/her/it’s heart to be true, to ask how would I like to be treated if I happened to be in the minority.

[TheBlackSheep]

The insistence that when someone knows they are trans it is different experience from being cis got me to wondering. Why should we automatically take on face value what a person thinks they are?

That’s when I stumbled upon the therianthropes, or therians. See http://therian-guide.com/forum/portal.php A therianthrope is someone who truly believes he is earthen animal. There are many ideas as to why the person believes he or she is a therianthrope. Some believe that at birth the body because inhabited by the soul of an animal that just died.

You know, I'm sure I can't really comment on this, as I have no experience with therianthropes.

But Vorpal, I really don't appreciate it when, to attempt to prove a point, you take the other person's point and move it into what is widely regarded as absurdity. It's a set-up, and I don't appreciate being put into that position or watching others be put into that position. It creates frustration and shuts down the kind of civil, open dialogue I like to be a part of.

If you have questions that you can present more fairly, I will be happy to do my best to answer them. I do not have all the answers, as I am cisgender, and I don't think anybody has the answers. Otherwise, I am not participating.

[TheBlackSheep]

And, to clarify, I am NOT classifying therianthropes (therianthropy?) as absurdity. I'm making no comment on it whatsoever. What I am commenting on is the strategy of taking an argument and blowing it up to what many people would classify as absurdity in order to make the argument look silly.

[Whistler]

I'll volunteer to classify therianthropes (furries?) as absurd! And otherkin and otakukin. Because I'm a close-minded hater!

It really bothers me to see people taking advantage of the language of transsexuality to justify non-trans things (and maybe it's stupid to be bothered by that?). There are reasons a person might feel like a woman's mind trapped in a man's body or vice versa. I've read psychology studies that show that trans women's brians look like cis women's brains (basically). To me, there are ways that a developing fetus could be exposed to hormones in non-standard amounts and later on in life, feel gender dysphoria because of it.

However, as far as I know, there aren't any human hormones designed to make one's brain feel like an animal. The body dysphoria appears to be similar, but I don't see a good biological reason for it. I guess if someone actually does some research on it, I'd be interested in the results, but until I hear a good reason for it, I remain a bit bigoted towards these "other" crises of identity.

[Whistler]

Dressing up for fun and games I guess I'm okay with... but some people need a therapist, not a rights advocate.

[vorpal blade]

I was offended by your comments and accusations, Black Sheep. I was also defensive, since I had felt a prompting that this was not the approach I should be taking, but I ignored that prompting. But I decided to pray about it and study it out some more in my mind. After sleeping on it the answer I got really surprised me. I had been mocking your beliefs, and this is inappropriate behavior. It is not civil, and it should have no place in polite discourse. You are right, and I was wrong. Please accept my humble apology.

I notice that you did not ask me any questions. Am I to believe that you do not feel that I have anything of value to contribute to this discussion? Or did you not ask me any questions because you didn't want to be further insulted? The later is completely understandable if that is your position.

The question I was going to ask has now been partly answered by Whistler. My comment was that it seems to me that trans gender people fall into two categories, those who have become confused as to their gender because of false and misleading ideas in our culture regarding gender, and those who suffer from a self-identity disorder found in affective and schizophrenic disorders or some other psychiatric disorder. My respectful question was to ask whether or not there is any scientific evidence that suggests a third possibility. Whistler has now provided that. Can either you are someone else provide references to reliable, non-biased sources of the scientific evidence?

Thanks. And thank you for pointing out my error.

[TheBlackSheep]

Vorpal, I appreciate your apology more than I can really say. Thank you. I apologize if I assumed more motivations than we really there; our history of going back and forth on this forum can't be denied and I'm human.

As for your second paragraph, it was more like I did not want to put myself in a position where through anger or something else I would jeopardize the work I have put in to defending the trans position, because I care about that movement so much. Of course I believe you have valuable contributions to make to this thread. Everybody, including me, needs to have their assumptions challenged. I just did not like the approach.

I'm on a lunch break right now so I don't have the time to find you what you are asking for, but I will, or I will hook you up to other resources that will do it for me.

[Whistler]

Just because something is scientific doesn't mean it's non-biased! But there are a lot of studies out there. Basically you can google "transsexual brain" and find a lot of them.

Here's one about how trans women have around the same number of neurons as cis women in their limbic nucleus: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

This study looks at the brain's white matter:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... fLMCY21F34

This one looks at the size of the hypothalamus in trans women:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/02/us/st ... ality.html

I freely admit that I haven't read these, and don't really care to debate their particulars.

[vorpal blade]

Thank you Whistler for the references. I haven't looked into to them yet, but I will. I wholeheartedly agree with you that just because something is scientific it doesn't mean that it is non-biased. And I don't blame you for not wanting to debate the particulars of these studies. So, how do you feel about these psychological studies that you have read that show that trans women's brains look like cis women's brains (basically)? And how do you feel about the possibility that a developing fetus could be exposed to hormones and later feel gender dysphoria because of it? Do you think this is reasonable, or do you merely suggest it as a possible explanation outside of the two theories I gave?

Is that what gender identity boils down to, a difference in brain type, or a difference in hormone levels in early development?

[vorpal blade]

While we are on the subject of a civil, open discussion I would like to make a few comments. Several years ago Marduk said something like this, "Don't agree with Vorpal. It goes to his head." While I suppose the comment was made in jest, this forum does seem to have taken this rule to heart, and was one of the reasons I left it a couple of years ago. Until the Black Ram came along no one dared to agree with me on any point. In effect Portia and others have tried to explain to him that I am the enemy, that you are a traitor to your generation, or to the cause of women, or some other cause if you ever agree with Vorpal on any point. It doesn't matter how many times and in how many ways you disagree with Vorpal, you aren't allowed to agree with him on any point. Or suffer the consequences.

I feel this attitude has led to a spirit of confrontation. I state my opinion and someone else states a contrary opinion, and watch how many people line up to tell the person who disagrees with me how wonderful they are, how good of a job they have done. My motives, my character, my age is ridiculed and mocked or disparaged. When someone new, like Black Ram, agrees with me on a point he is dealt with in a very negative manner. Black Ram seems like the kind of a smart, independent, strong sort of person who can deal with it. I thought I was too, for a couple of years.

Now, from time to time kind words are said to me. I know that. I don't wish to sound complainy and difficult. I am not the enemy. I like the people in this forum. I think they are intelligent, caring, educated, good people. I want the best for them. I am not trying to force my point of view on anyone. It just seems to me that if we want an open and civil discussion that we should not have this spirit of camaraderie to rally around and support someone who we happen to view as in our "camp." And we should not try to suppress or intimidate anyone who is not in our camp. I'm not worried about The Black Ram. He can take care of himself. I'm worried about the many quiet ones in this forum, and the many who have left this forum.