Bras and Society

[Random]

Sometimes I run around (yes, run) in public without a bra on, and anyone who's met me knows that I am not of the small breasted clan. The main reason why I don't always go out without a bra is because I have very excitable nipples, and I'd really prefer to not have them "say hello" to all the people on the street. When I'm at my house, I honestly don't care.

The best part is that I wasn't like this just a few months ago. I used to wear a bra always all the time, even when sleeping. I used to think it was essential to wear because that's just what you do. I think I changed my mind about it because of my changing view of modesty, which came about because I started actually thinking about why I do some of the things that I do.

[vorpal blade]

Integrating Editor,

Okay, I’ll try to explain it from this male’s perspective. If it doesn’t make sense to you, or seems illogical, I agree. It is basically irrational, operating on a level below conscious thought.

First, let me explain the typical male reaction to seeing an unclothed female breast. I’m not exactly sure why the breast should have a stronger stimulating force than other parts of the body. It just does for most men in our society. Some claim that the magazine Playboy is responsible for glorifying the female breasts. I don’t know about that. I suppose some men may be more stimulated by other body parts; I’ve never met a guy like that, but I suppose it is possible. It could be different in other cultures, but the breast seems to have this effect on men in all but primitive cultures, most of the time, as far as I can determine.

The reaction most men have to seeing an unclothed female breast is dramatic. He might be operating on ten percent of his brain power and instantly 99% of his brain is focused on that one thing. His heart rate goes way up, he begins to sweat, his knees shake, his mouth is instantly dry, and adrenaline and other chemicals flood into his blood stream. It all happens so fast it takes his breath away. The 1% of his brain left to him is saying, “I...must...not…look…. I…must…divert…my…attention….” It’s a magical, hypnotic fascination that only with great willpower can be broken. If not quickly derailed, a train of thoughts and other biological events begins to pull out of the station under its own steam.

I believe that women can be turned on by seeing a good-looking shirtless man, or an attractive man whose clothes make a woman think about what is under them, and I think this is immodest in men and they ought to dress differently. I think that the usual response in women is to begin a romantic fantasy about the man. That is unless she quickly squashes the thought. It is hard to quantify different reactions, but I believe the female reaction is like being stimulated with a tickle of 5 volts, whereas the man experiences a shock of 50,000 volts. Typically.

I don’t think this strong male reaction necessarily involves thinking of sex. It seems to come to boys between the ages of three and eight, even though some of them may not have a clue about sex at that age. For a man the shock comes without “committing adultery in his heart.” He doesn’t have time to think at all. It is just a raw, powerful stimulation. The initial stimulation is not pleasant, but it is strong and it is addicting. Men crave a repetition of the stimulation. This, I believe, is the origin of the addiction to pornography that so many men have.

Men develop defenses to protect themselves from the shock, because the shock usually leaves them with an unclean feeling, and there are reasons you don’t want to stand there leering with your tongue hanging out. Some of these defenses are developed by the culture in the society you live, and some scientists think that some defenses are hardwired into the typical male brain. You don’t react if the breast you see is on the body of a close relative, such as a sister. However, not everyone is the same, and incest is not unheard of in our society. You don’t react if the person is of a sex you are not programmed for (no matter how big his or her breasts are), or if the person is not age appropriate, whatever that means to you. And coming to the topic under discussion, you usually have some defenses if the person is modestly clothed according to the standards of the society in which you live.

The basic rule of modesty is that the clothing should not call attention to the person’s body. Here a man’s imagination comes into play. A man’s defenses may be dismantled if the woman’s clothing is suggestive or provocative to the man. If what you are wearing makes a man think about your breasts the strong reaction sets in as he instantly unclothes you mentally and in his mind gazes at your naked breasts. If a man suddenly notices that you are not wearing a bra, his mind will think about your naked breasts and he will strongly react. Seeing the clear outline of a nipple will do it. Not seeing evidence of a bra may do it. Seeing a portion of your breasts will stimulate his imagination to fill in the blanks and he may react almost as strongly as actually seeing the complete naked breast.

There are factors which intensify the reaction. The more a man believes that you are deliberately provoking him by causing him to think about what your naked breasts look like, the stronger he will react. The more you show, or the more evidence you give of your breasts, the more he thinks it is intentional. You might not be thinking of this at all, but it takes very little for a man’s imagination to run away with him. He easily thinks you are in effect saying to him, “Look at my breasts!” Or, “Look at me; I don’t have a bra on because I want you to think about my breasts!”

There are mitigating factors. On the beach, or where more revealing clothing (or no clothing) is generally acceptable, the reaction may not be so strong in many men. In these situations the man may feel that the provocation is not specifically aimed at him. The same attire on a city sidewalk will get a different response, as it will be assumed that the purpose of the clothing is to stimulate him personally. Some men will not react if the breast is seen in connection with breast feeding, as the apparent motive of showing the breast is other than to provoke him. The lack of attractiveness of the woman may or may not be a mitigating factor, though the shock and fascination will be mingled with self-revulsion. A man can also program himself to quickly look away or fill his mind with other thoughts. However, it is not always possible to ignore 50,000 volts of shock.

A man can become numb to the shock of a naked female breast. I remember a man talking about what it was like to work backstage where females walked around topless before going on the stage. He didn’t think about the nudity in that setting and with those particular women. But the shock was only covered up. Once, when the man and several topless women were standing around eating ice cream cones a little of the ice cream dripped onto the naked breast of one of the women. As he reached for a napkin to help wipe up the spill his defenses were suddenly stripped away, she was now naked in his sight, the strong reaction set in, and everyone became embarrassed. Similar things happen in nudist camps.

In conclusion, I think that there is no problem in going without a bra if no one else can tell. But anything that calls attention to your body, whether apparently braless (even with small breasts) or revealing or tight fitting or suggestive is likely to cause a reaction that you can scarcely imagine. I don’t say it is fair, logical, just, or the way it ought to be. I believe it is the way it is and we aren’t going to be able to do anything about it.

My apologies for a long post.

[The Black Ram]

Ok, let me start my reply by saying I’m dating the Black Sheep, I’ve seen a few of the postings on this board and am very excited for this opportunity to make my introduction by replying to such an artistically rendered piece of drivel.

First of all, breasts are indeed amazing, I’ll not argue with the word “magical” and they are by all anthropological imperatives a required component of mating and procreation. I will disagree that breasts have this effect in all cultures, in many cultures breasts aren’t even a taboo issue. I’ve seen breasts at children’s museums in Paris when under the reproductive exhibit, yes, they have that for children.

I don’t believe he has any experience upon which to speak for women’s sexual motives as his experiences and mine differ greatly, and I’ve been around a few blocks.
In response to the pornographic addiction statement, people don’t seek genitalia, they seek satisfaction. Again this is an anthropological imperative, the man (or woman) that doesn’t mate doesn’t create offspring, if there is no offspring then there is no continuation of these lack luster sexual motives, and all that remains are those with a healthy sexual appetite. The fact that you allow your faith to control you through your genitalia is not a human condition, it is a you condition. You say that men create defenses to protect themselves from the shock, my defense is to have healthy experience. This is the most common and natural response to sexual insecurity. Your attitude that women need to cover up so that you can think clearly is an attempt to hold others accountable for your own shortcomings instead of dealing with them head on. Were you to fully accept that women have breasts, and they are amazing, you would be able to appreciate them without losing your mind (or money?) You say that on a beach breasts may not have this effect, yet you are expecting others to control your perspective my complying with your expectations. I say that I have not consented to these terms. In summation, if you let women manipulate you with their breasts, or by going braless then that is your own problem and probably one that you willfully perpetuate. As for myself, I love naked women.

[bobtheenchantedone]

Welcome aboard, Black Ram. Glad to see you did decide to get an account.

I've taken a couple of days to try to gather some thoughts, and I found myself much reminded of an article recently posted on By Common Consent. It was written by a man who went on his mission to Guatemala and spent some of his time there in coastal areas where, understandably, many women adopted a standard of dress that our culture would find "immodest."

I told my companion that it really bothered me seeing so many women in various states of undress. It was hard to focus and I felt weak and powerless around them. How were we to be strong and stay faithful? I had prayed and fasted about it constantly, and felt little strength in return. And I began to despise many of the women I encountered for “making” me feel that way (I knew plenty of other missionaries who felt the same in the face of these hellish sirens).

Here we have a man, a missionary who is supposed to be learning to love and share the gospel with everyone, who is starting to hate the women around him purely based on how they are dressed. This man then turns on his companion, frustrated by how he is seemingly unaffected by it all:

He told me that he spent several years in Hawaii when he was younger. He was on the beach daily, surrounded all day every day by girls in various styles of swimwear, from more or less “modest” to skimpy, and everything in between. His friends’ mothers often wore bikinis to the beach; he was used to seeing every girl he knew like that. Some eventually became girlfriends, while others remained simply good friends. He was used to it; it really didn’t bother him.

I told him that you can become accustomed to anything, and eventually you’ll be desensitized, even to evil and temptation. But how can you look at someone like the woman we just encountered without having sexual feelings? Justifiably, he wasn’t happy with my response. He told me that becoming accustomed and desensitization were not the same. He still thought women were desirable, no different from any other heterosexual man, it was just that he didn’t experience anxiety and powerlessness according to what a woman chose to wear. He didn’t have to sing a hymn or think about watching baseball or look at the ground. He felt free and unperturbed. Sure, he sometimes felt the urge to self-gratification or wanted to get more intimate with girls than was appropriate, but he viewed these as issues common to human beings generally and felt that virtuous living and basic human decency ensured that there would be appropriate boundaries that it was ok to occasionally struggle with. In other words, his normal sexual desire was disassociated from crippling anxiety and the feeling of losing control, of being everywhere surrounded by harm and threat. He loved girls, he said, and had always wanted to be with them regularly. But he didn’t obsess over girls or think of them as sexual objects designed for his own titillation, to constantly flee from until you hopefully found the safe haven of marriage at some point in the future. He didn’t think girls could directly and irrevocably cause inappropriate thoughts, but that such thoughts were just part of becoming an adult human being, and needed to be acknowledged and managed accordingly. He said he felt free. And that he was sorry for me that I apparently didn’t.

So with all of that context, vorpal, you can see why this way of thinking:

The more a man believes that you are deliberately provoking him by causing him to think about what your naked breasts look like, the stronger he will react. The more you show, or the more evidence you give of your breasts, the more he thinks it is intentional. You might not be thinking of this at all, but it takes very little for a man’s imagination to run away with him. He easily thinks you are in effect saying to him, “Look at my breasts!” Or, “Look at me; I don’t have a bra on because I want you to think about my breasts!”

frightens and angers me. When a man in any way blames a women for his own thoughts and actions, he is indulging in a kind of sexism that easily leads to a society where women are blamed for being raped and become second-class citizens overall. This is especially concerning within a religious context because men can feel all the more justified in their sexism; after all, they are men of God trying to be "strong and faithful" while the offending women around them are "hellish sirens."

Instead, we need to teach our young men to think like that companion. Sexual thoughts are normal in puberty and adulthood and should be acknowledged as such, and from that platform they can be much more easily managed. Feminism will still have hurdles to jump as long as men think they can blame women for their thoughts.

[Portia]

Good post, bob.

[Imogen]

Oh bob, your post was so great. You said everything I wanted to say, but y'all know how feisty I can get, so I've mostly avoided replying to posts I find incredibly upsetting. Thank you for that.

[Emiliana]

Ditto what bob said.

I think we can find some common themes in vorpal, Ram, and bob's posts:

He told me that he spent several years in Hawaii when he was younger. He was on the beach daily, surrounded all day every day by girls in various styles of swimwear, from more or less “modest” to skimpy, and everything in between. His friends’ mothers often wore bikinis to the beach; he was used to seeing every girl he knew like that. Some eventually became girlfriends, while others remained simply good friends. He was used to it; it really didn’t bother him.

It just does for most men in our society. ... It could be different in other cultures, but the breast seems to have this effect on men in all but primitive cultures, most of the time, as far as I can determine. ... He didn’t think about the nudity in that setting and with those particular women.

I’ve seen breasts at children’s museums in Paris when under the reproductive exhibit, yes, they have that for children.

The two closely-related themes are exposure and culture. If you're routinely exposed to breasts, they're not as big a deal as if you don't. Your culture is a major contributing factor in how often you see breasts. If you are from a "primitive" culture, you likely see them a lot. If you are from a conservative area of the United States, you probably don't -- thus the "shock" that Vorpal describes.

[The Black Ram]

Bob had some good input from a different perspective than my own, and thank you for pointing out that his sexism leads to a society where women are blamed for being raped and treated as objects. I had a hard time putting these things into words though I saw plenty of it while I was in Iraq. Emiliana I also appreciate how you recognized exposure and culture as the common themes though I would prefer to use the word “uninhibited” instead of “primitive” which is why I used the Paris example. If Vorpal really needs something between his eyes and the offending breasts then I would suggest a pair of opaque glasses.

[Marduk]

That's pushing it a little far, Black Ram. Try to keep your posts about the ideas, and less about the motives/personality of the people posting them.

[The Black Ram]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the objection Marduk. Is it that I used names or advocated personal responsibility (albeit in a somewhat sarcastic tone)?

[Digit]

For a while, public nudity was legal in Berkeley, CA. Andrew Martinez, A.K.A. Naked Guy, took advantage of that window.

[Yarjka]

For a while, public nudity was legal in Berkeley, CA. Andrew Martinez, A.K.A. Naked Guy, took advantage of that window.

We have topfreedom in Ontario. Not that I've seen many women take advantage of it.
(*Warning: link contains breastesses*)

[Digit]

Do the fast food joints have signs that say "No shirt, no shoes, no service." like in the states? Or just "...no shoes..."?

[Yarjka]

Do the fast food joints have signs that say "No shirt, no shoes, no service." like in the states? Or just "...no shoes..."?

I'll have to check - I haven't seen those signs as much here as I did in the states. But I would think a private establishment would have the right to deny service to anyone they see (un)fit.

[Marduk]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the objection Marduk. Is it that I used names or advocated personal responsibility (albeit in a somewhat sarcastic tone)?

The latter. The tone is just a tad harsh.

[Portia]

A spectacular a cappella group performed at my company picnic today, and only one girl was dressed in "BYU standards" clothing. And guess what? They were talented and beautiful and any man that feels the need to slut-shame or perv them needs a life.

(They were all wearing bras; y'all are crazy ... I just feel like this is the modesty thread de la semaine.)

[vorpal blade]

The Black Ram. Good to meet the boyfriend of one of our favorite Board and BoardBoard writers. It would be fun to get to know the boyfriend or husband of other writers as well. How did you and The Black Sheep meet?

You say that you love naked women. I think I understand that. Does this mean that you are not one of those men who feels sexually assaulted, virtually raped by a woman going braless or wearing revealing clothing? Instead of being a victim, do you consider yourself the serendipitous beneficiary of a sartorial indiscretion?

Do you spend some time, now and again, looking at pictures of naked women?

[UffishThought]

Does this mean that you are not one of those men who feels sexually assaulted, virtually raped by a woman going braless or wearing revealing clothing? Instead of being a victim, do you consider yourself the serendipitous beneficiary of a sartorial indiscretion?

Is this really your experience as a man, Vorpal? If I see a naked man in a non-sexual context (such as the movie a Room with a View, where, a few guys have gone swimming in a pond) I don't feel like I've been raped or assaulted. I recognize that those are penises, and I know that they can be used for sex, but it's not like I am incapable of looking away or enjoying the dialogue and the plot of the movie. I see them, understand them, and move on.

And yes, I've heard that men tend to be more visually stimulated than women. That may be true--while I've got a healthy sex drive, the sight of genitalia doesn't do much for me. But even if men are more affected, I don't think that gives them the right to give up responsibility for their reaction--physical or mental. A low-cut or thin top does not give any man who sees me the right to put his hands on my breasts. Nor, I think, does he have the right to claim he's been "virtually raped." He may have an involuntary reaction of "hey, boobs! I'd like to put my hands on those!" but then he can choose to either continue to entertain that thought or wrest his mind away. He is not powerless.

I dress well within the cultural bounds of decency, but even if I didn't, I should not be called a rapist, or a temptress, or a slut. A scantily clothed woman may be inconsiderate, as someone who is eating ice cream in front of someone who is lactose intolerant may be inconsiderate, but she is not attacking him, and he may not play the victim for it, especially to equate the experience with something as horrible as rape. People must use their willpower and restraint in all areas of life. A man's reaction to a woman's attire is no different. He still has his agency.

Here's my thought: I am not a demon out to tempt men away from the straight and narrow. I am not trying to lay traps to ensnare well-meaning men with lustful thoughts. I do not want to be any man's downfall. But most of all, I don't want what's hanging in my closet to be the key to his damnation or salvation. That responsibility is NOT mine, and I do NOT accept it.

[mic0]

Does this mean that you are not one of those men who feels sexually assaulted, virtually raped by a woman going braless or wearing revealing clothing? Instead of being a victim, do you consider yourself the serendipitous beneficiary of a sartorial indiscretion?

Obviously, I'm not-a-man, but I still want to say that this seems very black and white. It's impossible for a (hetereosexual) man to recognize, say, that some woman is braless and be neither "virtually raped" or supremely excited about the "sartorial indiscretion"? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like something that a man might just notice without having such strong feelings either way.

[The Black Ram]

I’m going to respond to your questions out of order because my answer will be more succinct.

Vorpal: Do you spend some time, now and again, looking at pictures of naked women?

Me: I have pictures from the Louvre, Yosemite, and many other sources of beauty, why would I choose not to appreciate God’s one gift designed specifically for man?

Vorpal: Instead of being a victim, do you consider yourself the serendipitous beneficiary of a sartorial indiscretion?

Me: No, when Adam and Eve were both created they were naked and man was made in Gods image. This was not sinful, nor shameful, lustful or wicked, this was simply as God intended until something about a fruit and a serpent. I simply prefer not to perpetuate the curse.

Vorpal: You say that you love naked women. I think I understand that. Does this mean that you are not one of those men who feels sexually assaulted, virtually raped by a woman going braless or wearing revealing clothing?

Me: Why would I feel sexually assaulted by one of God’s creations presented as they were designed?