let's talk about sex

[The Black Ram]

I'll come back to this tomorrow, however you are making a number of inaccurate, negative, public, assumptions.

[Imogen]

I don't understand why it seems like you're into basically manipulating someone into having sex with you? Why can't you just say "hey, i want to have with you. you down?" instead of trying to CONVINCE them to have sex with you? maybe i just prefer someone being straight forward, but if you have to start convincing me, you may as well give up.

[vorpal blade]

Vorpal: How about telling her that you just might commit suicide if she doesn't have sex with you? Is that sexual assault or nearly rape?

Me: I had a girl tell me that if I broke up with her she’d commit suicide, I told her to go outside first.

I don’t advocate manipulation in any form I do however expect people to be strong enough in their convictions to be able to be accountable for their choices. Or is this not how it works? Are you denied access to heaven because the church “Pressured” you into being good?

I'm sorry, Black Ram, I kind of set you up with that question. I really did want to know your opinion on it, because I suspected that you felt the same way about it that I do. The threat of suicide was manipulative, which is very bad, but it doesn't release the "victim" from responsibility. It wasn't illegal like sexual assault would be, or rape.

This question was discussed in the topic "Mission Guilt" where no fewer than 7 people on this board thought that the threat of commiting suicide made the sex nonconsensual and therefore sexual assault, or rape. The "victim" should therefore feel no guilt for having sex, because it was not voluntary. I was the only one who suggested that it might be just manipulative and that she should have known better, or should have said something like you did, and be accountable for her choices.

To answer your question I don't think you will make the Celestial Kingdom if you only do good things because you feel pressured to do them. You have to be valiant to go to the highest kingdom, which means to me that you have to do good works of your own free will and choice, and for the reason that you love God and love truth, and you loving doing good to your fellowmen.

For what it is worth, I think I'm beginning to like you, Black Ram.

[Portia]

I'll come back to this tomorrow, however you are making a number of inaccurate, negative, public, assumptions.

For the record, I was using "you" in a generic sense, not specifically about you, The Black Ram. I don't know your history and I don't care.

I just felt that your friend's blogging sex partner was getting some victim-blaming heaped on her, and it made me uncomfortable. I wasn't there, though; I don't know the full story. But your attitude about Utah girls is a bit icky, dude.

[Portia]

"Floating" (WTF is that about?)

Someone just barely asked me about this! Although he called it something else. (Faint of heart: just move along...)

It's a total urban legend, and absolutely ridiculous. No one actually does this, ever.

[UnluckyStuntman]

This question was discussed in the topic "Mission Guilt" where no fewer than 7 people on this board thought that the threat of commiting suicide made the sex nonconsensual and therefore sexual assault, or rape. The "victim" should therefore feel no guilt for having sex, because it was not voluntary. I was the only one who suggested that it might be just manipulative and that she should have known better, or should have said something like you did, and be accountable for her choices.

IT'S. STILL. RAPE.

There, Black Sheep, I said it for you.

[Portia]

Reading comprehension fail, Vorpal. The GUY threatened suicide, and the GIRL was the victim of his mental manipulation. No one "excused" the manipulator. (Although I, for one, think he needs help, and that we don't have enough info to say it was rape, just that the girl's guilt is out of place.)

Sigh.

[The Black Ram]

Ok, time to clear up a few assumptions, once again out of order to make things more succinct;

Portia: So a little background on Mormon culture might help, The Black Ram.

Me: Two parts to this, first of all the world is not required to conform to Mormon culture nor expectations. Expecting everyone to conform is the set up for heartache that I’m advocating against. 2nd part, my Mother raised me with strong Christian ideals (very similar to Mormon) in regards to sex, dating, and waiting till Marriage. Because of this I didn’t start dating until I was about 20. When I finally started dating all the passions and drives that came with the new acceptance, being around a real live girl, etc. were fairly overwhelming and I ended up having sex with her a month later, then I found out she was engaged. Crushed my poor little heart. Point being, I feel I have a pretty good understanding of what you object to I just have a differing opinion of the solution. I don’t expect the world to conform to my ideals, I believe open communication (which you advocate) and education are the answers.

Portia: I feel like you're taking what was no doubt a sh*%%y experience for all parties and being all "haha, women,"

Me: After my experience I found a group of people that taught sexual education. I taught women’s self-defense (just self-defense with “Women’s” on the front to be less intimidating, I’m still conflicted about that), other classes were about STDs, birth control, communicating with your partner, negotiating what you’re comfortable with. Basically all the things I felt were lacking from my religious upbringing. These classes were meant to be educational and empowering. The problem was that on occasion girls would go home with someone else from the class knowing full well that they were going for sex, nothing more, and nothing less. They would sometimes feel guilty the next day and decide it was “rape”.

Portia: I hate the quid pro quo culture that has sprung up, perhaps especially in a state like Utah, where if a girl isn't an untouched virgin, well then, obviously she's willing to put out.

Me: I’ve had sex in 3 continents and 6 countries, barring Iraq (mostly Muslim, where women are little more than property, and frequently are human shields.) this is by FAR the most respectful (by Judeo-Christian standards) place I’ve ever been. Your statement is simply unsupported. Though if you want to avoid a quid-pro-quo situation you can always pay your half of the date, which incidentally is one of my more controversial dating habits.

Portia: Yeah, if you're dealing with a girl who sees sex as more than a "physical function,"

Me: (Most?) Everyone sees sex as more than a purely physical function, or we’d all just be using toys.

Portia: even if she's caught up in the moment, she's probably going to have morning-after regrets. Why not err on the side of caution in that case? (Combined with) Then he said something, while a little patronizing, still stunned me: "I know you're not that kind of girl." It was his, like, ex-Christian-atheist way of saying that he respected me for me, and didn't want to just hop into bed with someone he actually liked but didn't know well. (Additionally) So yeah, maybe in some magical fairy land of unicorns and no power differentials and where no one's reputation is compromised, sure, we can all have sexy sex times.

Me: You talk about respect, equality, and communication yet applaud someone ignoring your express wishes for your benefit. Are these not the action you would take on someone deemed mentally incompetent? This is by definition the way you would treat a second class citizen and I can think of nothing more degrading. You want a fairly land of unicorns and no power differentials, equality is earned, fought for, and respected by the individuals wishing for equality, NOT glorifying those that treat them as mentally incompetent.

Portai: Meanwhile, back in reality, why not treat a girl like a person?

Me: I do, I treat women as fully formed human creatures with the ability to make a decision.

Imogen: I don't understand why it seems like you're into basically manipulating someone into having sex with you? Why can't you just say "hey, i want to have with you. you down?" instead of trying to CONVINCE them to have sex with you? maybe i just prefer someone being straight forward, but if you have to start convincing me, you may as well give up.

Me: Can you find ANY supporting evidence to this? I AM the very direct kind of guy and it seems to me that people taking issue with my position are taking exception to things I’ve never done. I never advocated manipulation (From earlier in this post “I don’t advocate manipulation in any form I do however expect people to be strong enough in their convictions to be able to be accountable for their choices.”)

Vorpal: This question was discussed in the topic "Mission Guilt" where no fewer than 7 people on this board thought that the threat of commiting suicide made the sex nonconsensual and therefore sexual assault, or rape. The "victim" should therefore feel no guilt for having sex, because it was not voluntary. I was the only one who suggested that it might be just manipulative and that she should have known better, or should have said something like you did, and be accountable for her choices.
Me: I tend to agree, we have a litany of words for this kind of behavior none of which is on my “list of good things”, this does not however make it rape. When someone threatens suicide there are many options and compliance is one of them, calling a counselor, bishop, paramedics, talking, or as I did, calling their bluff. The Black Sheep and I had a fairly heated discussion about this last night and I have HUGE issues with lumping manipulation in with physical force. We compromised that coining a term such as sexual coercion (some variant) would be more reasonable.

Portia: I just felt that your friend's blogging sex partner was getting some victim-blaming heaped on her, and it made me uncomfortable. I wasn't there, though; I don't know the full story. But your attitude about Utah girls is a bit icky, dude.

Me: This has nothing to do with Utah girls, or Mormon girls, just girls that don’t believe they have to be accountable for their actions and try to use the legal system to get revenge on those who have done nothing more than take her at her word.

[TheBlackSheep]

IT'S. STILL. RAPE.

There, Black Sheep, I said it for you.

There's a story with this, folks.

When I took sex and gender at BYU, in the first class the professor presented several scenarios which obviously constituted rape. The first one, which is the only one I remember, was that a female BYU student was in a guy's apartment past curfew and was dressed in something that constituted a revealing outfit and that she was in his bedroom. Then he raped her. A shocking number of students in the class said that well, that wasn't right, but if she had done such and such differently, she wouldn't have been raped. I lost my cool more than once during that class and ended up yelling, "IT'S STILL RAPE!" at the top of my voice. Once upon a time, I was regaling Mico, Queen Alice, Unlucky Stuntman, and Unlucky Stuntman's husband with this story in a park, and US's husband started getting super uncomfortable because he was surrounded by women, one of whom was screaming about rape. Good anti-conference times.

Now, back on the topic of this thread specifically, the Black Ram and I will probably never agree about it 100%, but I have represented my views on it to him and in other places on this forum. So, you know, no words need to be put in my mouth. (Not that US was, as she was just quoting me, but for the record.)

[Portia]

You talk about respect, equality, and communication yet applaud someone ignoring your express wishes for your benefit. Are these not the action you would take on someone deemed mentally incompetent? This is by definition the way you would treat a second class citizen and I can think of nothing more degrading. You want a fairly land of unicorns and no power differentials, equality is earned, fought for, and respected by the individuals wishing for equality, NOT glorifying those that treat them as mentally incompetent.

Um, you weren't there. I never said nor said that I said I was willing to have sex with the guy. (I wasn't, and I didn't say so.) So I don't know how my "express wishes" figure here.

I'm not mentally incompetent, but I do perhaps like to negotiate in a different way than you do. I like a guy to "look out" for me, to be the one to "put the reins" on. Does that mean I'm incapable of saying "no"? Nope. Maybe this seems old-fashioned to you, or something; not my problem.

I'm not mentally incompetent, and a guy I liked (somewhat awkwardly) acting "chivalrous" doesn't make me an idiot, thanks. Even if it conflicts with your worldview.

[The Black Ram]

You said his actions were patronizing, I’ve never felt patronized while someone was complying with my wishes.

[Portia]

When I took sex and gender at BYU, in the first class the professor presented several scenarios which obviously constituted rape. The first one, which is the only one I remember, was that a female BYU student was in a guy's apartment past curfew and was dressed in something that constituted a revealing outfit and that she was in his bedroom. Then he raped her. A shocking number of students in the class said that well, that wasn't right, but if she had done such and such differently, she wouldn't have been raped. I lost my cool more than once during that class and ended up yelling, "IT'S STILL RAPE!" at the top of my voice. Once upon a time, I was regaling Mico, Queen Alice, Unlucky Stuntman, and Unlucky Stuntman's husband with this story in a park, and US's husband started getting super uncomfortable because he was surrounded by women, one of whom was screaming about rape. Good anti-conference times.

I love this, even though the story it comes from kind of makes me want to cry. Although let's be honest, would other universities be much better??

Ugh, now I have an ulcer. Thinking about this just makes me so. angry.

Thanks for yelling that, TBS. A lot of people needed to hear it. Reminds me of my Bioethics class where the professor had to convince several people that homosexuality is real and not some delusion you'll grow out of.

[Portia]

You said his actions were patronizing, I’ve never felt patronized while someone was complying with my wishes.

His word choice was a little corny. Maybe could be interpreted as "benevolent sexism," but I didn't feel that way at the time, and don't feel that way now.

I never said I didn't want to sleep with him, either. (He was really hot!) The point of the story is that he didn't assume I was, and I'd personally rather a guy assume "no" until he gets the green light.

[The Black Ram]

No, he told you "I know you're not that kind of girl."... I just believe in the right to make a choice and be held accountable for that choice, apparently this is where we differ. "Benevolent sexism", is still sexism.

[The Black Ram]

Portia: I never said nor said that I said I was willing to have sex with the guy. (I wasn't, and I didn't say so.): I never said I didn't want to sleep with him, either. (He was really hot!) The point of the story is that he didn't assume I was, and I'd personally rather a guy assume "no" until he gets the green light.

Me: So effectively you don't want to make a decision and hold the guy accountable for guessing right. This is no form of equality with which I’m familiar.

[Portia]

The Black Ram, I think an important point is that we were both well past the point of intoxication, and therefore legally unable to consent, if I understand the law correctly. (I don't make a habit of this: it was not a high point in my life.)

He made his choice. Does he not have the right to say no? Since he was more drunk than I was, should I have seized the moment, so to speak, and then if he saw that as rape would it be boohoo for him? Do you subscribe to the idea that men are "always on" or something?

If I had wanted to go further, I would have disabused him of that notion. But even though I can "play the game," at heart, I'm not really "that kind of girl," and would rather have sex in the context of a relationship. Since he was moving away soon, that wasn't going to happen, so I think we both decided that we ought not, even if it would have no doubt been fun.

I don't think he was sexist, although maybe he was raised with the same "Christian values" that you were, and was still learning. Isn't that okay? I guess I just appreciated how he treated me, and found it to be a huge improvement over how a lot of Mormon guys had treated me, is all I'm saying.

Who said anything about guessing? It was, like, our second date. Unless it's a "casual encounter," I'd say it's a little premature to even be thinking of going there!

(Also, maybe use the quote function? It's difficult to follow your threads.)

[The Black Ram]

The Black Ram, I think an important point is that we were both well past the point of intoxication, and therefore legally unable to consent, if I understand the law correctly. (I don't make a habit of this: it was not a high point in my life.)

(Also, maybe use the quote function? It's difficult to follow your threads.)

Why didn’t you lead with your main point, naturally that changes everything. However treating me like I’m an idiot for not knowing something you didn’t stay is still extremely unfair (though a common theme in your messages). This is how many posts in and you’re FINALLY getting to the game changer?

To re-state something you've obviously missed earlier:

I draw personally the lines of accountability at physical force or coercive action wherein genuine needs are threatened. Physical force is self-evident, coercive action being things like the aforementioned boyfriend threatening to leave the girl somewhere unsafe, teachers, or anyone in a position of authority or trust. Beyond that I suggest that the inability or unwillingness to say no to rape is just willful ignorance. Oh, and chemical alteration… Is there a counter example I'm missing?

So, instead of making assumptions about people why not pay attention to what they’re saying? Aren’t we both advocating communication?

[Portia]

The Black Ram, I think an important point is that we were both well past the point of intoxication, and therefore legally unable to consent, if I understand the law correctly. (I don't make a habit of this: it was not a high point in my life.)

(Also, maybe use the quote function? It's difficult to follow your threads.)

Why didn’t you lead with your main point, naturally that changes everything. However treating me like I’m an idiot for not knowing something you didn’t stay is still extremely unfair (though a common theme in your messages). This is how many posts in and you’re FINALLY getting to the game changer?

I said he was inebriated in my original post.

I don't think you're an idiot, and didn't want to or try to come across that way. I feel that you're taking this more personally than is warranted; I never "cried rape," as you put it, I don't think I made anyone guess my intentions, and I am probably one of the most sexually open people on the board. (I'm one of the few non-married non-virgins, which is just shocking since it's a Mormon-oriented board... #sarcasm)

I don't drink often, and gave it up when I "reformed," if you want to put it that way, when I went back to BYU. But it sort of underlies my point: he was less coercive/manipulative than perfectly sober Mormon guys I've been with, who have assumed a quid pro quo. That's a problem in my book. Look, I don't like a lot of the cultural assumptions ("good girls" vs. "bad girls" or whatever) any more than you do, but they exist.

[vorpal blade]

Reading comprehension fail, Vorpal. The GUY threatened suicide, and the GIRL was the victim of his mental manipulation. No one "excused" the manipulator. (Although I, for one, think he needs help, and that we don't have enough info to say it was rape, just that the girl's guilt is out of place.)

Sigh.

This question was discussed in the topic "Mission Guilt" where no fewer than 7 people on this board thought that the threat of commiting suicide made the sex nonconsensual and therefore sexual assault, or rape. The "victim" should therefore feel no guilt for having sex, because it was not voluntary. I was the only one who suggested that it might be just manipulative and that she should have known better, or should have said something like you did, and be accountable for her choices.

How do you get from this that I wasn't saying the GUY threatened suicide? I knew that, and this is what I was saying. The person who felt the guilt for having sex was obviously the GIRL, and the thoughts expressed in that topic revolved around how she should not feel guilt for having sex because she was manipulated. Or, as it was more commonly said, sexually assualted. Obviously when I said "she should have known better," I was referring to the girl, who should have known better than to allow someone to manipulate her with a threat of killing himself. What she should have said is something that The Black Ram said he had said, in effect go ahead and kill yourself I will not be manipulated.

The Black Ram seemed to have no trouble understanding what I was saying. Before you accuse people of reading comprehension failure, you ought to go back over what they said and see if you can interprete what they said in a way that reflects better on their point of view.

And I say this in the kindest, most loving way.

[The Black Ram]

Ok, that word got lost in the pages of assumptions flung at me so I missed it *apologies*, and that is in fact a game changer. One of my longest standing personal rules about sex is “no alcohol the first time” because it does indeed encourage bad decisions.