Too Many Mormons

[Portia]

Pet peeve alert! Why do people go to BYU to escape Mormons? Why, why, why?

I love Utah, and quite frankly, my non-LDS friends are better houseguests than the believers. It's like the hipsterdom of religion: "well, I can't be Mormon if everyone else is, then it's just kind of cliché."

What is Utah Mormon culture? Is the Church the same everywhere, or not? 'Cause guess what, all the annoying things about Mormons are magnified in the "mission field," because they have to parade it around all the time and act like everyone else is just drinking beer. (Which, in Wisconsin, has some validity to it.)

YOUR OFFICIAL DOCTRINE COMES OUT OF UTAH, SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CULTURE, DON'T BE MORMON.

[thatonemom]

I know people tend to say the Church is the same everywhere you go, but that wasn't my experience. Church in inner-city Chicago looks very little like church in Utah. (I have examples if anyone is actually interested) But I don't know if I should attribute the difference to an overwhelming majority of converts, socio-economic status, city vs. suburban culture, ethnicity, etc. So many confounding variables.

Really, I'd imagine church with people of similar cultural background, affluence, and education to Utah looks much like church in Utah, regardless of where that church is actually located. But I'm interested in your WI examples of things being magnified, Portia.

[Dragon Lady]

I tend to agree. I mean, we (active Mormons) are all striving for the Celestial Kingdom, right? Who do you think you're going to be surrounded by there?

[UffishThought]

I'm confused by your reaction and argument. Excuse me while I take up too much space trying to address that.

First, the asker didn't go to BYU to escape Mormons. He just says he'd prefer to raise kids where Mormons are the minority, not the majority. He wants to raise kids in the same type of environment he grew up in. That doesn't seem any worse than people who want to have 4 kids because they're one of four, and they liked the dynamic.

Then you talk about how your non-LDS friends are superior in some ways. Okay, sure. But that doesn't strengthen your argument. If the asker wants to raise his children around non-LDS people because he thinks that his children can benefit from the association, it seems like you should be on his side.

Utah Mormon culture is a real thing, and no, the Church (at least the culture) is not the same everywhere. The doctrine should be. But the people and the way they try to live the doctrine isn't. I think a lot of it, though not all, comes from the majority vs minority mindset. When you are in the majority, your beliefs and ideas are constantly reinforced, and it's easier to think slightingly of those who don't conform. For example, after attending BYU for years and then moving to UVU, I found myself sneering internally a bit at the people who were smoking, or wearing tube tops, or sporting multiple earrings in one ear. I was a little bit horrified to find myself so quick to judge and intolerant of others. Was it my own fault? Absolutely, and I adjusted my thinking as quickly as possible. But it also would never had happened if I had gone to the U of A instead, where non-Mormons are the norm, and I would have been constantly confronted with the fact that other people believe differently than I do, and that's just fine. And yes, I know there are people who fit the stereotype here (like the guy I dated who was worried I was leaving the church just because I had the gall to find aspects of other religions spiritually inspiring), and there are tons and tons who don't fit it and are accepting and well-informed and even keeled. But the fact remains: when you're in the majority, it's easier to find yourself scornful of the minority, whereas when you're in the minority, it's easier to remember that everyone is entitled to make their own choices. I think it's okay to want your child to grow up in a situation where they're more likely to know injustice than to be the injustice.

I don't understand your "mission field" jab. Yeah, outside of Utah people might have to regularly explain why they're not drinking, and so might bring up religion more often because of that. I don't know that that constitutes "parading it around," and I don't know that it's that annoying, either. I wouldn't get all bent out of shape if my Jewish friend wouldn't eat a Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger, though I might tease him a little bit that he's missing out. Outside of Utah, Mormons often get a little more respect for trying to live their religion than they do here. I didn't get the sense in AZ that people found me insufferable because I lived a different lifestyle than they did. (They may have found me insufferable because I was socially awkward and a little self-righteous as a teen, but not because I was a teetotaler or a virgin.) And what are you saying about beer? That non-Utah Mormons pretend non-Mormons are drinking milder alcoholic drinks than they are? Or that they pretend non-Mormons are drinking alcohol all the time when they're really not? Or something else? I don't get it.

And no. Church doctrine and culture are not synonymous. If I think God himself is at the head of this church, then I should be a part it. It would be overwhelmingly foolish to throw it all out because I don't like the attitudes of the members in one region, even if that region is where a lot of the church leaders happen to reside. Utahism is not Mormonism. If I choose, I can like one and dislike the other without being a hypocrite.

[UffishThought]

I tend to agree. I mean, we (active Mormons) are all striving for the Celestial Kingdom, right? Who do you think you're going to be surrounded by there?

Hee. Being surrounded by too many Mormons was something I was worried about when I came out to BYU, and that was a thought I had, too. Maybe I should get used to it if I want to go to heaven, and heaven is filled with Mormons.

Except: I think heaven will be filled with Mormons and Jews and Hindus and Zoroastrians and Confucionists and Catholics and atheists and so on. And I don't think we'll identify as "Mormon" there, either. I think we'll identify with truth. And while I do believe Mormonism currently has a lot of truth, maybe the most truth, I think of it more as a tool to point me towards the ultimate goal.

And Mormons in the "bubble" have the stereotype of being out-of-touch with the rest of the world. In the Celestial Kingdom, there is no "rest of the world" to be out of touch with, presumably. Heavenly beings would be marked by intelligence and informedness, not by ignorance.

Again, the majority vs the minority problem. I'd assume Godly beings are merciful and good, looking out for the needs of those who didn't make it all the way to the top and don't have as much power. Whereas we humans tend to abuse our power, from time to time.

I don't think that being at BYU and being in heaven have that much in common, socially speaking.

[Tally M.]

+1 Uffish Thought

(You summed up everything I wanted to say)

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Uffish Thought is my hero.

[Portia]

If I implied that my non-LDS friends are superior, that certainly wasn't my intent. I should have made it clearer that they enjoy Utah more, not that they're "better" people. They're always posting to Facebook about the great hiking, breweries, music scene, etc.

I just find it to be a bit cute to need to be different from other people. Perhaps I am reading these Utah-haters wrong, but I just feel like so many aspects of Utah culture (its whiteness, its squareness, its squeaky-cleanness, its youth) are a direct result of the Mormon religion that this woman presumably shares.

My parents struggled with the move to Utah. I get it, on the one hand ... but I don't think it was the religion, but the socio-economic and lifestyle differences.

Or that they pretend non-Mormons are drinking alcohol all the time when they're really not?

YES. Although to be more precise, non-Mormons here do, by and large, drink heavily, especially the twentysomethings, but not all do, and not all the time. The local singles' ward is just crazy town because yes, this city has a major binge drinking problem, but no, that doesn't mean you can only be friends with Mormons. They just are so patronizing about other people's lifestyle choices, and no one back home seems to feel the need to talk about how sad it is that other people don't have the gospel in their lives, that their life goals are so useless. #smilefrown Also, people are, in my opinion, sadly transparent in their desperation to get married. I think a large part of the problem is that my coworkers are all rich yuppies. The student population seems a lot more chill, but most of my "Mormon" grad student friends are ex-Mormon.

Does it make you a better person if you have to turn down booze at every party, or look like a frump because of how you dress compared to your peers? I have no intention of raising my kids in a religion, but I'd rather we live in a state where I don't have to constantly battle underage drinking (does this make me kind of the same as the yuppie coworkers? Unclear). Does that make sense? I like Utah culture! And for the record, I don't care about my hypothetical children's friend's tattoos, religion, or clothes, but I do think things like sex and drinking are fair to have firm rules on. I don't know, I'm still figuring a lot of this out. :-|

At work, the Mormons are so clannish. I don't think that's the case in Utah, at least not among my sort of artsy, liberal friends.

I don't identify with minority subcultures, though. I'm pretty mainstream. I find my Utahness, my family's religion, to be a barrier to the kind of person I want to be perceived as and the friends I want to have.

There's just a lot more us vs. them outside Utah. No one cares about my religion back home. I feel like it's way too salient here for my comfort.

[Portia]

And now I'm very, very interested to analyze what it is about "the bubble" that is separate from the religion. I did not go to a strongly LDS high school, and I was always somewhat scornful of the Zoobs while secretly loving it (because I was pretentious, ha).

Here are some "Utah" stereotypes which I think I fit perfectly well that aren't particularly Mormon, but Mountain Western and middle-class:

• Office job
  Dress mainstream, or in name-brand clothes
  Doesn't enjoy wild partying
  Outdoorsy
  Only mildly career-oriented
  Wants to be married young-ish and have kids
  Whitebread
  Outgoing, somewhat naive

[Portia]

Since you're in Utah, you're going to have to deal with Utahns. That's just the way it works. And you'll have a miserable time anywhere if you can't get along with the native residents. So learn to love your Utah sisters, even the ones who help keep those stereotypes going--they're got some surprisingly good qualities under their bug-eyed glasses and their massive poof of hair.

Looks like we've been here before. ;-) That answer is awesome. I like mine, too. Haha.

It was interesting to me to ask myself, "am I one of these people? Can I not handle the 'real world'?" Mmmmmaybe ... Although, to be fair, my worst disappointments and real struggles all happened in Utah, but so have, by far, the happiest times in my life.

I hope I don't ever make someone who isn't exactly like me feel out of place or lesser than. I do have an incredibly hard time with change and do seem to be less-than-adept in the world outside it. Sigh.

[Katya]

I tend to agree. I mean, we (active Mormons) are all striving for the Celestial Kingdom, right? Who do you think you're going to be surrounded by there?

So, do you think that Mormons (or active Mormons) are, as a group, better than any other group of people?

[Yellow]

So, do you think that Mormons (or active Mormons) are, as a group, better than any other group of people?

I'm torn between two responses here.

On the one hand, I'm not even sure it's possible to define what it means for one person to be "better" than another person. Are active Mormons more charitable as a group? Are they less prone to domestic violence or criminal activity? Are they more friendly and inviting in social situations? Are they more tolerant of opposing points of view? Are they more hard-working and industrious? I just don't even know if it's possible to answer the question in a meaningful way.

On the other hand, I think it's reasonable to believe that the Gospel is intended to make us better people (whatever that means), and that living in accordance with the Gospel will make you a better person. So from a doctrinal perspective, you might hope that if you take two groups of people, one without the Gospel and one with, that the group with the Gospel would be "better."

Of course, there is a difference between being an "Active Mormon" and living according to the Gospel. If there's a group of people actively living the Gospel, I would expect that the associated spiritual gifts (meekness, longsuffering, et al.) would make them better people. I just don't know if there's enough correlation between Mormon-ness and actually living the Gospel to claim that the typical Mormon is any "better" than anyone else.

[Marduk]

Also, as was implicit in your answer Yellow, but I'd just like to make explicit, there are plenty of people who aren't Mormon who are living many if not almost all of what I consider to be the Gospel plan. I'm not convinced that the religion a person lived in life will be a good indicator as to celestiality (look, I can make up words!)

Portia, Mormons everywhere are clannish. When most of a person's social life revolves around their church activities, it creates that sort of environment. My guess is you just don't notice it in Utah because most people are Mormon, and even often assume that other people are Mormon when they aren't.

As a guy who loves a lot about Utah, I have to say, there's one thing I think that living outside Utah helps children growing to do better: actively define what it is they believe. When people around you are actively making decisions that are different than you expect (drinking alcohol being just one among many) it makes you reason why you are not doing those things, or if you even want to. Inside of Utah, there's an assumption that everyone believes the same way you do, so if and when your views are challenged, it is much easier simply to revert to whatever the masses are doing.

[Whistler]

No one is "better" than anyone else. We are all children of God. Some people may act more in accordance with God's commandments though, and find favor with Him.

[UffishThought]

Ooo, fun discussion.

While I'm with you, Whistler, I'm also with Yellow and Marduk. I think you're using "better" as a measure of intrinsic worth, and then of course no one has more than anyone else.

But I think they're using it there in the sense of "bettering yourself," or as a kind of marker of self-improvement. Someone "better," in that sense, would be wiser or more powerful or more effective or any of those virtues we tend to think of as spiritually important. In that sense, someone certainly could be "better" than I am. There are people who are better at fashion or sports or word puzzles or making good decisions or getting out of bed in the morning or feeding the hungry or being cheerful in the face of hard times.

When you asked the question, Katya, which definition did you have in mind?

[Dragon Lady]

I should have been a little more specific. Pretend I said, "Highest degree of the Celestial kingdom" which, yes, will only be Mormons. Because you have to be sealed in the temple in order to reach it.

But I agree that once there, we won't identify so much as Mormons so much as… people. As truth. We'll just… be.

And no, I'm not saying that Mormons are better than other groups of people. I am only saying that if all (or even many of) us active Utah make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom (which I think we will, honestly. I don't think it's a small, elite group. Also, that's really long to type out) then I think a lot of our culture will follow.

[Dragon Lady]

Did that answer all the questions posed to me?

[Katya]

When you asked the question, Katya, which definition did you have in mind?

I actually decided to keep the wording deliberately vague so that people would have to be more specific in their responses.

[Marduk]

I should have been a little more specific. Pretend I said, "Highest degree of the Celestial kingdom" which, yes, will only be Mormons. Because you have to be sealed in the temple in order to reach it.

Um, no. Mormonism is specific to this time on Earth. Being sealed to a spouse only necessitates being Mormon if it happens while you are living, which do not describe the vast, vast, VAST majority of sealings.

[Katya]

I should have been a little more specific. Pretend I said, "Highest degree of the Celestial kingdom" which, yes, will only be Mormons. Because you have to be sealed in the temple in order to reach it.

But that could also include people whose temple work has been done for them. And I wouldn't call people who accept their temple work post-mortally "Mormons" or "LDS," because I don't think those terms make sense outside of this life.

But I agree that once there, we won't identify so much as Mormons so much as… people. As truth. We'll just… be.

OK, so this seems to fit it with what I said above.

And no, I'm not saying that Mormons are better than other groups of people. I am only saying that if all (or even many of) us active Utah make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom (which I think we will, honestly. I don't think it's a small, elite group. Also, that's really long to type out) then I think a lot of our culture will follow.

OK, but Mormon/LDS culture has changed radically over the last couple of centuries. And contemporary Mormon/LDS culture is very different in different parts of the world. Which part of our culture do you think we will take with us?

Also, what if you met a Mormon who was trying their best to be a good person, but they said that they hated many aspects of (contemporary) Mormon culture? Would you tell them that they probably wouldn't be happy in heaven, then? Or at least not in the Celestial Kingdom? Would you consider this attitude evidence of sin or unrighteousness?