Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

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UffishThought
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by UffishThought »

Boring teaching rant, but if you want to validate me, I'd appreciate it. :)

I'm currently a long-term English sub. The real teacher asked me to collect study guide she gave them at the beginning of the Macbeth unit. I don't think she looked over it before she assigned it, though--some questions referred to a different edition of the text than the ones the kids had, as well as to philosophies they knew nothing about, etc. It was dense, too. Just one piece of paper, front and back, but it was numbered from 1-25, and each number had several related questions. So: a lot more work than I think she meant to assign, and a lot more work than they expected.

Some kids came in having obviously spent a lot of time on it. They had at least a paragraph for each number/set of questions. They had a couple pages typed, or 3 or 4 handwritten, with some very thoughtful answers. Some even looked up the information they hadn't ever heard of, so they could do a good job answering the questions. I wanted to make this really difficult assignment worth their while, so I made it 50 points--only two per question, but as a whole, worth about the same as a test.

About a third of the kids came in with the study guide still blank, and filled it out by listening to the in-class discussion. In most cases, they wrote directly on the study guide (which clearly was not meant to be written on--there's no space for answers, so they were filling in the margins. Every student that wrote directly on the study guide really skimped. To save space, or maybe just out of laziness, they answered with one-word answers instead of complete sentences. Even more damningly, they didn't answer every question. They had something written down for every NUMBER, but each number had multiple questions, and they ignored all but the first, usually. Most questions asked students to explain or discuss their answers, and again, those kids didn't do that.

So: the kids who took it home and did it all, I gave 50/50. The kids who wrote on the study guide and didn't do everything, I gave a 30/50. But just an hour after I put it in the gradebook, I had a kid come demanding answers. Although he eventually admitted that he hadn't done everything it asked (at first he was saying he only skipped one or two, but I pointed the others out to him), he still seemed to think that 40% off was way too harsh. I'm planning on letting them redo it for at least 10 more points, maybe even the full 20. But now I feel a little guilty. Is that too harsh, do you think? They're juniors and honors students, and though it didn't say "don't skip answers" or "answer these on a separate sheet of paper so you have space", I really thought they would infer that. But I don't want to be unfair or cruel. Thoughts?
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Dragon Lady »

I would say that letting them redo it for the full credit is sufficient. They totally skimped on the assignment (which it's not your fault they got), and while you agree it was an unfair assignment, you're giving them a second chance. They can choose whether or not to redo it.
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Imogen »

Redo for full credit: No. That's not fair to the kids who DID take the time and effort to do it right the first time. I would not change the grade. Instead, I'd offer them an opportunity for extra credit that would amount to saving SOME points but not all. If they want the get a better grade, they have to work for it.
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Indefinite Integral
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Indefinite Integral »

You could let them redo the problems they didn't answer for half credit, that way they could still get some of the points back, but there is some penalty for not having completed the assignment fully the first time.

Or you could allow them to redo it for full credit, and give those who had it done the first time 5 extra points for having done it right the first time.
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Whistler
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Whistler »

this is hard because you didn't give the original assignment, so you weren't able to clear up questions about it. You also might not know if there's a precedent here (like if the teacher has given out study guides in the past like this and if so how she graded them). I think you should try to find out if there is a precedent--because if there is/was, I'd be more inclined to go with whatever they were expecting.

This situation is also a little different from writing an essay because you're giving credit for completion. In my freshman English class, I let students rewrite a paper if they didn't like the grade I gave them, but I also re-graded it, so just doing it over wasn't an automatic A. You know this class best, so you'll have to do what your heart tells you :-).
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Marduk
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Marduk »

I think as long as you expect the same thing for full credit, there's no harm in giving full credit. That way, doing it on time got it out of the way and didn't have to worry about doing it twice.
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Giovanni Schwartz
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Giovanni Schwartz »

I think that if they do it, you shouldn't give them full credit. Deadlines, and all that. However, I think that you should give them half credit if they do it well. It is high school, after all.
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Dragon Lady »

I second talking to the teacher and finding out what the precedent is.

But I still vote for full credit as the homework isn't clear and they have to google things for it. They can still do most of it and get partial credit. They still have to go above and beyond to get the full credit.
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Giovanni Schwartz
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Giovanni Schwartz »

I agree that if they put in the effort, they should get full credit. The beef I have is if they do it late, they shouldn't get full credit, no matter how well they do, because every other student in the class turned it in on time. Either that, or you would have to give the option to those that didn't get full credit to redo it for full points, and the ones who already got full credit should get some EC or something.
UffishThought
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by UffishThought »

Here is the update!

The teacher claims that's not something she'd put up with...but based on the way the students act and how shocked they are that they didn't get full credit, she may not be evaluating herself accurately. Anyway--she says I can give 10 extra points to students who redo the assignment (which will give them a low B, instead of a D), but she wouldn't give full credit, and won't accept late work again after that. (I'm very happy with the arrangements. It gives them a chance to adjust to the new standard, but doesn't forgive them for ignoring the work they should have done in the first place.
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Dragon Lady
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Dragon Lady »

AND if any student gets mad about it, you can pass the blame to their teacher. :)
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Portia
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Portia »

Man, students are whiny these days.
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Indefinite Integral »

Portia wrote:Man, students are whiny these days.
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by bobtheenchantedone »

Hey everyone in Provo/Orem/close by! I'm singing this Friday and Saturday at UVU for the opera workshop class. We're putting on two hours of scenes from lots of different operas. I'm singing a solo Friday night, but have several parts to play both nights. It's only $5 if you're a student. Come!

https://www.facebook.com/events/590574601014898/
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Imogen »

UffishThought wrote:Here is the update!

The teacher claims that's not something she'd put up with...but based on the way the students act and how shocked they are that they didn't get full credit, she may not be evaluating herself accurately. Anyway--she says I can give 10 extra points to students who redo the assignment (which will give them a low B, instead of a D), but she wouldn't give full credit, and won't accept late work again after that. (I'm very happy with the arrangements. It gives them a chance to adjust to the new standard, but doesn't forgive them for ignoring the work they should have done in the first place.

Kids pretend like they don't know the rules all the time. My kids know what I expect, and when a sub tells me something different happened than I expected, my kids get hell from me. They usually don't misbehave or act dumb like that again, either. Kids will do ANYTHING to get out of doing their real work or to get something they haven't earned. I've noticed how kids are losing the ability to think critically and creatively. Everything is handed to them in elementary because it's easier than dealing with problems, most of them don't play outside or have toys that require imagination. It's a mess! Portia is right, they are whiny. If I were that teacher, I wouldn't have let them redo it. It's an honors class, and they need to exercise some common sense at some point. Are they going to go crying to their professors in two years when they do incomplete work or turn something in late and the professor grades them harshly for it?
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UffishThought
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by UffishThought »

Maybe, but this teacher IS absentminded and tangenty and inconsistant. All the classes have been telling me that, even when there's nothign to be gained. I can also tell it from her conversations with me. Though I'm sure they're trying to get away with stuff because I'm a sub, I'm also pretty sure that their regular teacher isn't as strict on them as she claims. So I'm very comfortable with this solution. It shows them where I stand so I can take a hard line in the future, but gives them a little leeway, in case they really were used to something else.
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Portia
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Portia »

Imogen wrote:
UffishThought wrote:Here is the update!

The teacher claims that's not something she'd put up with...but based on the way the students act and how shocked they are that they didn't get full credit, she may not be evaluating herself accurately. Anyway--she says I can give 10 extra points to students who redo the assignment (which will give them a low B, instead of a D), but she wouldn't give full credit, and won't accept late work again after that. (I'm very happy with the arrangements. It gives them a chance to adjust to the new standard, but doesn't forgive them for ignoring the work they should have done in the first place.

Kids pretend like they don't know the rules all the time. My kids know what I expect, and when a sub tells me something different happened than I expected, my kids get hell from me. They usually don't misbehave or act dumb like that again, either. Kids will do ANYTHING to get out of doing their real work or to get something they haven't earned. I've noticed how kids are losing the ability to think critically and creatively. Everything is handed to them in elementary because it's easier than dealing with problems, most of them don't play outside or have toys that require imagination. It's a mess! Portia is right, they are whiny. If I were that teacher, I wouldn't have let them redo it. It's an honors class, and they need to exercise some common sense at some point. Are they going to go crying to their professors in two years when they do incomplete work or turn something in late and the professor grades them harshly for it?
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Marduk »

Portia wrote: Imogen is my spirit animal.
That's racist.
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Portia
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Portia »

Marduk wrote:
Portia wrote: Imogen is my spirit animal.
That's racist.
Speaking of, I thought it was really weird that this 26-year-old Indian woman looks like a cartoon version of, um, me. Because when I think "Indian" I definitely think "descendant of the British Raj."
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Re: Happy Days in Random Chatter 10

Post by Dragon Lady »

Yellow just got called a communist on Facebook because, in a discussion of "What smartphone should I get?" he commented:
Note, people: For the sake of making a decision, saying "iPhones suck" or "Android is garbage" isn't useful unless you specify *what* it was you didn't like. I doubt he's going to buy a phone purely based on how many people voted one way or the other. Talk about features and performance and apps and stuff, not just "it was good" or "it was bad".
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