Ordain Women

[Amity]

Looks like we've finally found a topic that's more controversial than Ordain Women: whether Marduk or Vorpal is correct.

[vorpal blade]

In every age there have been those who thought they had a better plan than God or God’s servants. Lucifer had his plan in the Great Council. Peter thought he could correct Jesus. Moses and the other prophets had their critics. And, remember Uzza who put forth his hand to steady the Ark of the Covenant? Lehi had Laman and Lemuel. Joseph Smith and following prophets were often criticized by those who thought they had better ideas. Sometimes these critics meant well and were merely reflecting the values and intellectual thought of the day, supposing the Lord’s anointed were just not as morally and intellectually advanced as they were. The challenge of life has always been to sustain the prophet even when he appears to be wrong according to the light of our limited understanding.

Consider the prophet Lehi. When he first announced that the Lord had told him to take his family into the wilderness his family did not just blindly follow. Everyone in the family asked himself or herself if this was really what the Lord required. But what a difference there was between family members.

Laman and Lemuel went, but they murmured against their father. To Laman and Lemuel their father was a foolish visionary man to leave their comfortable land of inheritance and all their gold, silver, and precious things and “perish in the wilderness.” In Laman and Lemuel’s thoughts none of this trip made any sense. They couldn’t believe that the great city of Jerusalem could be destroyed. To them, “the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people.” To Laman and Lemuel, Lehi and Nephi were at fault for judging the people in Jerusalem. They said these things because they “knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.” It was only that Lehi spoke with such power of the Spirit that they were confounded. Laman and Lemuel’s position seems very logical if you don’t have the big picture, and if you tend to rely solely on human understanding.

Contrast that with Nephi and Sam. Nephi quietly took the question of Lehi’s leadership directly to the Lord, and Nephi was diligent and lowly of heart. “And behold he [the Lord] did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers. And I spake unto Sam, making known unto him the things which the Lord had manifested unto me by his Holy Spirit. And it came to pass that he believed in my words.” Notice that Sam didn’t need his own personal revelation, he was content to trust and rely on Nephi, which is a gift of the Spirit, and Sam was blessed for it.

Throughout the following years Laman and Lemuel went along on the arduous journey, doing the same things the others were doing, and suffering the same trials. In many ways they probably thought of themselves as faithful members of the church, and sometimes they did humble themselves. Yet it was not a blessing for Laman and Lemuel because they constantly publicly criticized the prophet and in their hearts they were rebellious. Many times they staged their demonstrations against the prophet. And many times Nephi called Laman and Lemuel to repentance, even though Nephi did not have any priesthood authority over them at the time, and he was not their church leader. He was their younger brother, which hurt their pride.

Laman and Lemuel complained that Nephi had declared hard things to them, more than they were able to bear. He told them that the guilty takes the truth to be hard, for it cuts them to the very center.

To all those who publicly speak out or demonstrate against the church because you think if the prophet just listened to you things would be better, I say, as lovingly as I can, please repent now. That is the slippery road that leads to apostasy. There are appropriate ways to patiently, humbly, and obediently make suggestions. You can also enquiry of the Lord as did Nephi, or exercise trust and faith as did Sam. But the way of Laman and Lemuel is wrong.

[TheBlackSheep]

Only these people are not Laman and Lemuel. Laman and Lemuel were, at times, incredibly cruel to others, even attempting to murder Nephi. They had direct knowledge of angels, having met them, and yet they turned from that knowledge. They may, at times, have had good intentions. I don't doubt that. What I do doubt is that they were good people.

And just because something is hard to take does not mean it is true. It could mean that you are humbling yourself too far by imposing shame or hatred upon yourself. This is common in church culture, especially among women. It has even been addressed in conference. In fact, Vorpal, many of the women and men you are addressing this to have felt shame for years because they have tried to swallow this bit and others and don't understand why they cannot. They do not understand why they fail and why they are weak despite doing everything they are supposed to do. It sometimes takes courage to say to yourself that you don't believe that something is true when a person or institution has told you it is.

I was one of those people (though, I admit, I never felt I was lacking because I didn't have the priesthood). I left. "Apostatized," I suppose. These people aren't leaving. They are trying to make sense of things. Not all of them want women to be ordained to the priesthood, but even the ones that do are working with the best they have, just like everyone else. They don't understand why their leaders won't speak to them directly about this. Should their leaders call them to repentance, they will have to decide what to do, but their leaders have not. Sometimes having good intentions and trying to point out others' mistakes is both counterproductive (it makes them remember the pain of being too "weak" to believe and therefore strengthens their resolve) but it is also insulting because it simplifies and minimizes the struggle they have experienced as well as their point of view.

[Amity]

Vorpal, what you interpret as apostate questioning and steadying the ark, these feminist advocates see as faithful agitation and trying to perfect Zion. I understand that you don't agree with their goals, but questioning their faithfulness and their testimonies is, to me, out of line.

fMh posted this really fantastic article today about the scriptural history of faithful dissent. I highly recommend it to you, Vorpal.

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org ... l-dissent/

[vorpal blade]

I have the deepest sympathy for those who feel shame for what they are not responsible for. I sorrow for those who fail and are weak while trying to do everything they are supposed to do. I support and encourage those who don’t believe something is true and lack the courage to say so even to themselves. I applaud people who are trying to make sense of things. But these are not the actions I have called into question in my last post. I was taking about the actions of speaking out publicly or demonstrating against the church because they think if the prophet just listened to them things would be better.

There are many different opinions among those who support Ordain Women, and many different levels of faithfulness and rebelliousness. I’m talking about certain public actions some of them have taken. I’m talking about trying to get into a priesthood meeting when you’ve been told nicely not to do that. I’m talking about demonstrating outside of the Conference Center to get public attention. I’m talking about Laman and Lemuel type behavior: murmuring, accusing, rebelling, and demonstrating against the prophet because they think they know best the direction they should go. Naturally no one today is exactly like Laman and Lemuel in every way. I certainly don’t think all supporters of Ordain Women speak Hebrew! I think it is useful, however, to consider the many ways some supporters of Ordain Women are like Laman and Lemuel. I am not judging whether Laman and Lemuel or supporters of Ordain Women are good people or bad people. I’m talking about the behavior of some of them.

Naturally just because something is hard to take it does not mean it is true. My point was that just because someone complains about being insulted, hurt, or judged does not mean that they are innocent or that what they stand for is true.

From time immemorial people have been called to repentance by their church leaders because of pride, stiff-neckedness, and rebelliousness. What I am saying is nothing new. It is just so easy to assume that it is not us but someone else who the scriptures are talking about. If I don’t point out the mistakes some who support Ordain Women are making, I am part of the problem. Nephi reprimanded his brethren, even when it made them mad and could be said to be “counterproductive.”

[Portia]

Your last paragraph is riddled with logical fallacies. It makes my head hurt.

[vorpal blade]

Amity, apostate questioning? That’s not it at all. It is not the questions; it is the rebellious behavior in the way they present the questions. From what they say I can see that they don’t understand their actions to be rebellious. That’s the way I see them. Having a question about why women cannot be ordained to the priesthood, is one thing. Trying to get into a priesthood meeting when you have been told you are not invited isn’t asking a question. It is rebelliousness. Demonstrating against the church, when you have been asked not to, is not faithful agitation, it is defiance of church leaders.

It is not that I disagree with their goals. I disagree with the way they are trying to achieve their goals through unrighteous behavior.

I question the obedience and the sustaining of church leaders of those who refuse to be governed by their church leaders. Some of them may claim they merely want to know, but actions speak louder than words. I question their actions and let others judge their faithfulness and testimonies.

I read the article you posted. It seems typical of the many other articles of the same type I’ve read. I had many disagreements with the article. The most amazing thing is the cognitive dissonance between what she claims she is doing and what she is actually doing.

As I stated at the beginning of this essay, six months ago, I would have said that I could not feel comfortable engaging in any kind of “political activism” to change doctrines within the church. However, upon further study and prayer, I am convinced that asking the prophets to simply ask the Lord for further light and knowledge is not “political activism” but is a pattern that we can find repeatedly in the scriptures.

By demonstrating with Ordain Women on April 5 she certainly is NOT simply asking the Lord for further light and knowledge. She is actively rebelling against the church, which only leads to more rebelling ultimately leading to leaving the church.

[vorpal blade]

Your last paragraph is riddled with logical fallacies. It makes my head hurt.

A few nights ago I had a dream about you, Portia. I don’t usually remember my dreams, and I don’t think I’ve ever dreamed before about someone associated with the 100 Hour Board. As I was waking up the thought came to me, “that was, that was…Portia! So now I know what she is really like!” I remember being slightly annoyed with you in my dream, but also inexplicably sad.

[Portia]

Your last paragraph is riddled with logical fallacies. It makes my head hurt.

A few nights ago I had a dream about you, Portia. I don’t usually remember my dreams, and I don’t think I’ve ever dreamed before about someone associated with the 100 Hour Board. As I was waking up the thought came to me, “that was, that was…Portia! So now I know what she is really like!” I remember being slightly annoyed with you in my dream, but also inexplicably sad.

Well I once had a prophetic dream that Concorde was going out with one of my good friends, so strange stuff happens.

... But that is still pretty weird.

[Concorde]

Your last paragraph is riddled with logical fallacies. It makes my head hurt.

A few nights ago I had a dream about you, Portia. I don’t usually remember my dreams, and I don’t think I’ve ever dreamed before about someone associated with the 100 Hour Board. As I was waking up the thought came to me, “that was, that was…Portia! So now I know what she is really like!” I remember being slightly annoyed with you in my dream, but also inexplicably sad.

Well I once had a prophetic dream that Concorde was going out with one of my good friends, so strange stuff happens.

... But that is still pretty weird.

Yeah....about that....you gave him my real name.

And I never got back to him because real life was really bad for me at the time. So I feel bad about that, especially since he actually knows who I am...

[Portia]

Yeah....about that....you gave him my real name. :(

And I never got back to him because real life was really bad for me at the time. So I feel bad about that, especially since he actually knows who I am...

I'm sorry. He doesn't read the Board. So he asked me for your email/contact info. I should have found you and asked which method you would prefer. :-|

[Portia]

So back on topic. In the comments section of the latest SLTrib article about this, at least 90% of the commenters used the "women have motherhood. men have priesthood" argument. So either there is widespread misconception, or this is the actual reasoning.

Elders Christofferson and Andersen came verrry close to saying this in the last Conference, but shied away from it. We'll see if they clarify their statements this time.