I'm puzzled why it's so vital to suss out the motives of thevegan missionary. All the vegetarians and vegans I have known have invariably been polite and non-demanding: isn't it just common courtesy to do one's best to accommodate the needs of your guests? Here's my proposed inexpensive vegan dinner for the missionaries: pasta with red sauce (cheese on the side for those who want it), salad, bread. Boom. Cheap, easy, makes everyone happy, tasty. Vegan diets are MUCH closer to the letter of the Word of Wisdom than the modern, meat/sugar/processed crap diets of most Americans, including the LDS ones.
I find Haleakala's proposal as rude as if I were to have missionaries over and have coffee, wine, and wear a swimsuit. Common social courtesy.
#78104 - vegan missionary
Moderator: Marduk
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
I mostly agree with you on that. I don't see why a person couldn't just ask the missionary: "Oh, you're vegan/vegetarian! You know, I've never served vegan/vegetarian meals before, do you have any suggestions/do you want to help me prepare it?" Bam.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Agreed. At least in the US, the missionaries aren't going to go hungry without dinner from the members, so there's no need to act like giving them dinner is some vital, life-sustaining service and the hosts have no other obligations beyond providing them with physical nourishment. If nobody signs up to feed them, they have the resources and ability to make their own macaroni. Giving the missionaries dinner is a kind way to show gratitude and respect for their service (and hopefully to hook them up with new investigators), and so being a good host, which includes being aware of your guest's dietary needs and preferences, is more important than the actual act of providing them with a meal.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
And as far as the etiquette of the missionaries themselves asking not to be fed meat, I think it's more polite to let people know about dietary restrictions in advance rather than to surprise people by showing up and being unable to eat what they made. (Some people would argue that the most polite thing would be to show up and eat whatever they made regardless of your preferences, but that's not a feasible option when you have an ethical opposition to doing that. Similarly, nobody expects missionaries to drink coffee or tea just to be polite, because they have an obvious religious opposition to it.) Letting people know about your diet restrictions in advance allows them to choose whether they'd like to cook for you, and lets you offer ways to make cooking for you easier, like giving ideas for meals, bringing the main dish, or insisting on just enjoying the side dishes.
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NerdGirl
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Yeah, honestly, if someone avoids animal products because of personal ethical or moral beliefs, to me that is just as serious and legitimate as the things Mormons avoid for religious reasons. Yeah, they aren't going to go into anaphylactic shock if you put butter in the sauce, but good grief just respect people's beliefs and if you just can't get your head around feeding a vegetarian or vegan missionary, just politely decline to feed those missionaries. Don't prepare things they can't eat knowing full well that they don't eat animal products. That's rude and kind of pointless - "Oh, hi elders/sisters, I knew that you didn't eat meat, but I don't agree with that, so I made some hamburger casserole and you can sit here and watch me eat it!" I'm sure it's hard enough to be a missionary with dietary restrictions without people passing judgment on whether or not your dietary restrictions are legitimate enough to be respected.
I have celiac disease and I can't even imagine how hard it would be to go on a mission and have to eat at people's houses all the time when you can't just eat anything. That's a pretty serious medical problem and a lot of people still don't take it seriously - "Well, you won't stop breathing if you eat gluten, so just have a little bit of cake." And I used to be a vegetarian a long time ago and a lot of people were incredibly rude to me about, and it wasn't like I was preaching about it - I actually tried to draw as little attention to my eating choices as possible.
You don't even have to cook an entirely vegetarian or vegan meal - just pick a dish that isn't entirely made of animal products (pasta works well, like Portia said), and take some out and keep it separate for the vegan missionary before you add the meat and/or cheese to the rest of the dish. It's not hard to respect people's dietary restrictions, even if you don't agree with them. And if you can't do that, just don't sign up to feed the missionaries until the vegan missionary has been transferred.
Motives for being vegetarian shouldn't matter. All that matters is that for whatever reason, this missionary doesn't eat certain things and that's their own business and they aren't going to (and shouldn't have to) eat meat just because they are at a member's house for dinner. If you only cook food that they can't eat, knowing ahead of time that they can't eat it, you're just going to end up looking like a total jerk. I'm sure most missionaries would decline very politely, but really, what's the point of inviting someone for dinner and making something you know they can't eat?
I have celiac disease and I can't even imagine how hard it would be to go on a mission and have to eat at people's houses all the time when you can't just eat anything. That's a pretty serious medical problem and a lot of people still don't take it seriously - "Well, you won't stop breathing if you eat gluten, so just have a little bit of cake." And I used to be a vegetarian a long time ago and a lot of people were incredibly rude to me about, and it wasn't like I was preaching about it - I actually tried to draw as little attention to my eating choices as possible.
You don't even have to cook an entirely vegetarian or vegan meal - just pick a dish that isn't entirely made of animal products (pasta works well, like Portia said), and take some out and keep it separate for the vegan missionary before you add the meat and/or cheese to the rest of the dish. It's not hard to respect people's dietary restrictions, even if you don't agree with them. And if you can't do that, just don't sign up to feed the missionaries until the vegan missionary has been transferred.
Motives for being vegetarian shouldn't matter. All that matters is that for whatever reason, this missionary doesn't eat certain things and that's their own business and they aren't going to (and shouldn't have to) eat meat just because they are at a member's house for dinner. If you only cook food that they can't eat, knowing ahead of time that they can't eat it, you're just going to end up looking like a total jerk. I'm sure most missionaries would decline very politely, but really, what's the point of inviting someone for dinner and making something you know they can't eat?
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
I know at least one friend of mine couldn't go on his mission due to celiac. It's entirely possible that that's one of the medical reasons that would keep someone from going.NerdGirl wrote: I have celiac disease and I can't even imagine how hard it would be to go on a mission and have to eat at people's houses all the time when you can't just eat anything. That's a pretty serious medical problem and a lot of people still don't take it seriously - "Well, you won't stop breathing if you eat gluten, so just have a little bit of cake." And I used to be a vegetarian a long time ago and a lot of people were incredibly rude to me about, and it wasn't like I was preaching about it - I actually tried to draw as little attention to my eating choices as possible.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
It's funny to me that Mormons, who have their fair share of dietary restrictions, are often baffled or offended by vegetarian/vegan dietary restrictions. Personal or ethical beliefs are just as legitimate a reason for restricting one's diet as religious beliefs are.
A while back my parents had a missionary in their ward who needed a gluten-free, vegan diet because of medical conditions. She was very upfront about her dietary needs and politely asked the ward to accommodate her when they fed the missionaries. I think she even passed out a few simple recipes that she could eat. To me, she struck a good balance between making her dietary needs known while still being a good dinner guest.
A while back my parents had a missionary in their ward who needed a gluten-free, vegan diet because of medical conditions. She was very upfront about her dietary needs and politely asked the ward to accommodate her when they fed the missionaries. I think she even passed out a few simple recipes that she could eat. To me, she struck a good balance between making her dietary needs known while still being a good dinner guest.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Hello Everyone,
My choice of words here was largely dictated by my experience on my mission. While I prefer not to specify the location, I served in a first-world area where people were very willing - sometimes even too willing - too feed the missionaries despite their family's personal circumstances. While my mission had it's share of affluent and middle class members, it also had it's fair share of members whose worldly means were very limited.
The less affluent members of the Church - along with all other members of the Church in my mission - often felt they had a duty to feed the missionaries - an attitudes that while I appreciated, I found somewhat difficult. Many of these families would feed the missionaries better than they ate themselves. In most wards and branches, the ward mission leader organizes dinners, leaving you with very little ability to tactfully turn down meals from those who don't have the means to share. I remember one particular dinner where we were eating with the father and mother of the family while the kids were in another room. The parents weren't eating with us, and I couldn't figure out why the dinner was organized this way. It wasn't until later I found out that this family simply ate whatever we left over. I felt terrible.
Despite these types of experiences, I watched many of my companions take advantage of our member's generosity. The story I referenced in my answer - the missionary who told the members he couldn't eat vegetables - was the mildest example.
Was it presumptuous of me to push my mission experience onto the person who asked this question? Maybe. For the most part, it was unintentional - the answer I gave was really just a byproduct of my feelings about missionary meals generally, which was shaped by my experience. However, it's not as if I served in a third-world country where food supply is limited - I served in a first world country.
Portia, you were entirely correct that in most cases (almost every situation I can think of) it would be very rude to invite someone over to your home and then choose not to cater to the dietary needs/preferences/requests you knew they had. It would probably be even more rude to try and figure out what your guest's reason for their preference in order to determine if they were "legitimate" or not.
But having the missionaries over is different for a variety of reasons - not the least of which is that members often invite the missionaries over for meals well in advance of transfers - without understanding the potential dietary restrictions of their guests. But the biggest reason missionary meals are different is that missionary work is about service. If you're thinking of yourself and your preferences on your mission you're not doing it (and probably life) correctly. In eating with other members, as in everything they do, missionaries are responsible to be a blessing, not a burden. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to quote the missionary handbook and show how righteous I was. I often failed to meet that standard. But, despite my personal failure, it remains my firm conviction that that is the right thing to do.
In the future, if anyone here has been offended this deeply by something I've written, please feel free to contact me at haleakala@theboard.byu.edu before becoming so upset and posting about it publicly. In my view - and I say this with all respect - that is also part of common social courtesy. I can't promise a fast or immediate response, but I can promise an eventual one and gratitude for the feedback.
With all due respect,
Haleakalā
Portia wrote:I find Haleakala's proposal as rude as if I were to have missionaries over and have coffee, wine, and wear a swimsuit. Common social courtesy.
NerdGirl wrote:good grief just respect people's beliefs and if you just can't get your head around feeding a vegetarian or vegan missionary, just politely decline to feed those missionaries.
It's clear to me that I've offended several people participating in this thread, and I apologize for that. That wasn't my intention. Please give a chance to explain my reasoning:Amity wrote:It's funny to me that Mormons, who have their fair share of dietary restrictions, are often baffled or offended by vegetarian/vegan dietary restrictions. Personal or ethical beliefs are just as legitimate a reason for restricting one's diet as religious beliefs are.
My choice of words here was largely dictated by my experience on my mission. While I prefer not to specify the location, I served in a first-world area where people were very willing - sometimes even too willing - too feed the missionaries despite their family's personal circumstances. While my mission had it's share of affluent and middle class members, it also had it's fair share of members whose worldly means were very limited.
The less affluent members of the Church - along with all other members of the Church in my mission - often felt they had a duty to feed the missionaries - an attitudes that while I appreciated, I found somewhat difficult. Many of these families would feed the missionaries better than they ate themselves. In most wards and branches, the ward mission leader organizes dinners, leaving you with very little ability to tactfully turn down meals from those who don't have the means to share. I remember one particular dinner where we were eating with the father and mother of the family while the kids were in another room. The parents weren't eating with us, and I couldn't figure out why the dinner was organized this way. It wasn't until later I found out that this family simply ate whatever we left over. I felt terrible.
Despite these types of experiences, I watched many of my companions take advantage of our member's generosity. The story I referenced in my answer - the missionary who told the members he couldn't eat vegetables - was the mildest example.
Was it presumptuous of me to push my mission experience onto the person who asked this question? Maybe. For the most part, it was unintentional - the answer I gave was really just a byproduct of my feelings about missionary meals generally, which was shaped by my experience. However, it's not as if I served in a third-world country where food supply is limited - I served in a first world country.
Portia, you were entirely correct that in most cases (almost every situation I can think of) it would be very rude to invite someone over to your home and then choose not to cater to the dietary needs/preferences/requests you knew they had. It would probably be even more rude to try and figure out what your guest's reason for their preference in order to determine if they were "legitimate" or not.
But having the missionaries over is different for a variety of reasons - not the least of which is that members often invite the missionaries over for meals well in advance of transfers - without understanding the potential dietary restrictions of their guests. But the biggest reason missionary meals are different is that missionary work is about service. If you're thinking of yourself and your preferences on your mission you're not doing it (and probably life) correctly. In eating with other members, as in everything they do, missionaries are responsible to be a blessing, not a burden. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to quote the missionary handbook and show how righteous I was. I often failed to meet that standard. But, despite my personal failure, it remains my firm conviction that that is the right thing to do.
In the future, if anyone here has been offended this deeply by something I've written, please feel free to contact me at haleakala@theboard.byu.edu before becoming so upset and posting about it publicly. In my view - and I say this with all respect - that is also part of common social courtesy. I can't promise a fast or immediate response, but I can promise an eventual one and gratitude for the feedback.
With all due respect,
Haleakalā
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NerdGirl
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
^My response wasn't really directed at your answer, it was more directed at the original question. That part you quoted of my answer was aimed at the question, not at your response. That's what a lot of us use the reader response forum for - we debate and discuss about how we feel about the questions (and sometimes the answers, but for me, it's really mostly to talk about the questions). Obviously the answers play a role when we talk about the questions, but I wasn't offended by you and wasn't trying to attack you at all. I don't agree with you, but more than that, the question itself was just really surprising to me and respecting people's food choices is something I feel very strongly about. If I had feedback for you, I would gladly email it to you, but that's not what I was doing on here. Your answer is how you feel and that's fine, and I feel very differently, and as this is a matter of opinion and not a question of fact, it didn't occur to me to to email you and tell you that your opinion was wrong or something because it's an opinion and I'm fine with you having a different opinion from me. Instead I just joined in the conversation on here like I usually do. I'm sorry (for real I am, I'm not saying that sarcastically or passive-aggressively) if it seems like we aren't following common social courtesy by discussing things in this forum, but we're been debating like this for years, and our purpose isn't to get upset and attack writers, it really is just to discuss and debate things. And sometimes it's to just chime in with our own answers to things that wouldn't really be appropriate to submit as comments. And I actually think it would have been kind of inappropriate and jerky for me to email you and tell you your opinion is wrong, because it's not wrong, it's just not something I agree with. But I am not the arbiter of all truth. So instead I come on here and spout my opinions, where other people are also free to tell me they disagree. There's nothing actually problematic to me about how you answered the question, it's just that I don't agree.
I've actually really enjoyed a lot of your answers, and I hope you don't feel like we are all coming on here to attack you! I especially liked the answer that you wrote to this question: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/77928/ I thought it was really sensitive and it normalized the questioner's feelings while also giving a good solution. Many of us have been reading the board for over a decade (I've been reading since 2000) and a lot of us know each other pretty well and coming on here and arguing is just what we do. Things do sometimes get a bit heated on this forum, but really that's more about us and our established patterns of relating to each other than it is about the writers. Take me and vorpal blade, for example - I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, and we've gotten into a lot of good debates, but I think for the most part we enjoy debating (and it's sometimes a good way to better understand a perspective that I don't agree with), and we've actually had some pretty good conversations via private message about non-board stuff and I really respect him and care about him as a person, even if I disagree with him about a lot of things. But as for the writers, we love you guys - you're the reason I've kept reading this thing for almost 15 years!
I've actually really enjoyed a lot of your answers, and I hope you don't feel like we are all coming on here to attack you! I especially liked the answer that you wrote to this question: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/77928/ I thought it was really sensitive and it normalized the questioner's feelings while also giving a good solution. Many of us have been reading the board for over a decade (I've been reading since 2000) and a lot of us know each other pretty well and coming on here and arguing is just what we do. Things do sometimes get a bit heated on this forum, but really that's more about us and our established patterns of relating to each other than it is about the writers. Take me and vorpal blade, for example - I don't agree with him on a lot of issues, and we've gotten into a lot of good debates, but I think for the most part we enjoy debating (and it's sometimes a good way to better understand a perspective that I don't agree with), and we've actually had some pretty good conversations via private message about non-board stuff and I really respect him and care about him as a person, even if I disagree with him about a lot of things. But as for the writers, we love you guys - you're the reason I've kept reading this thing for almost 15 years!
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Thanks NerdGirl, I really appreciate that. Now that I look at it, the post I made was probably a little over the top. Also, I appreciate the discussion, because so many of the things we write about are matters of opinion. Thanks!
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Just wanted to say I completely agree with NerdGirl!
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vorpal blade
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
I'll agree with NerdGirl and Mic0. I'm not disagreeing with Haleakala either.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
After I posted this response, my grandma, who is the Compassionate Service leader in her ward, showed me the dietary restrictions list of a woman in her ward who had just had surgery (whom she described as a "hypochondriac"). My grandma's calling is to organize the meals, and she hates cooking more than me, but she took it on herself to make the recuperating woman's meals. (I pointed out, "and your diet isn't restrictive?")
She also had her fridge full of things she probably views as evil carbs, like funeral potatoes. She accommodated other people's food choices she disagrees with ... Whether to be kind or just avoid confrontation, I'm not sure.
I agree that many religious people over-privilege religious convictions as a paradigm for decision-making, at the expense of other modes of ethics. Mormons are INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO ENTERTAIN. Tea, coffee, and alcohol are very much a part of everyday life. Old-fashioned conservative people would probably see it as a faux pas to turn down what you're served, WoW or no. I'm a liberal, so "live and let live." As long as they don't come after my lattes, I won't cone after your carb preferences.
I wasn't offended -- I rarely am -- just surprised.
She also had her fridge full of things she probably views as evil carbs, like funeral potatoes. She accommodated other people's food choices she disagrees with ... Whether to be kind or just avoid confrontation, I'm not sure.
I agree that many religious people over-privilege religious convictions as a paradigm for decision-making, at the expense of other modes of ethics. Mormons are INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO ENTERTAIN. Tea, coffee, and alcohol are very much a part of everyday life. Old-fashioned conservative people would probably see it as a faux pas to turn down what you're served, WoW or no. I'm a liberal, so "live and let live." As long as they don't come after my lattes, I won't cone after your carb preferences.
I wasn't offended -- I rarely am -- just surprised.
Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Another thing to keep in mind is that the readers of this forum are disproportionately liberal, inactive, or both, and the current batch of writers is disproportionately conservative (and all active). I'm sure this colors our viewpoints. Don't worry, if I found something factually inaccurate or grossly offensive, I'd probably (but not necessarily) submit a comment. I only email writers if I have something funny or positive to say. I just thought it may be helpful for someone to have ideas for easy, inexpensive vegan meals.
I echo what at least four others have said as to the ethical implications of eating animal products "just this one time" for said missionary. It's against his moral code. It's not about the hosts. I think a conservative LDS person should understand this more than the average Joe ... ?In eating with other members, as in everything they do, missionaries are responsible to be a blessing, not a burden.
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NerdGirl
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Very true.Portia wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that the readers of this forum are disproportionately liberal, inactive, or both, and the current batch of writers is disproportionately conservative (and all active). I'm sure this colors our viewpoints.
Agree, but my experience with my 6 years of vegetarianism was that a lot of very orthodox LDS people didn't understand it at all and would try to tell me I was breaking the Word of Wisdom by not eating meat. And then they would go on about that whole stupid comma thing. It was actually a huge deal in my ward and a constant source of people giving me all kinds of unsolicited advice when I stopped eating meat. And all I wanted more than anything was to not talk about and just go about my business. I wasn't trying to evangelize vegetarianism. I still don't really understand why it was such a big deal to people. I'm from a farm town, and there were two families in my ward that raised cattle, but all the other farmers grew grain and legumes and sugar beets and potatoes. And even the ones with cattle also grew crops. I can see why people whose whole livelihood depends on meat production wouldn't be huge fans of vegetarianism, but no one really fell into that category.Portia wrote:I echo what at least four others have said as to the ethical implications of eating animal products "just this one time" for said missionary. It's against his moral code. It's not about the hosts. I think a conservative LDS person should understand this more than the average Joe ... ?
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Shrinky Dink
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
Funny story:
I used to help out the local high school debate team by judging at various debate tournaments. At very lucky tournaments, they would feed us judges (you give 6 hours of your friday or saturday for free, they generally want you to do it again). When I was a student, I learned to never attend a tournament without food or money for food. Judging was no exception. Anyway, at this particular tournament they had pizza for judges. I remember walking by and hearing a girl asking if there were any other options because she was a vegan. I quickly remembered that vegans don't eat cheese and that I had spaghetti and meatballs in my bag from last night's dinner. I quickly offered her my spaghetti and meatballs. She politely declined and I slowly remembered that vegans also don't eat meat.....
I used to help out the local high school debate team by judging at various debate tournaments. At very lucky tournaments, they would feed us judges (you give 6 hours of your friday or saturday for free, they generally want you to do it again). When I was a student, I learned to never attend a tournament without food or money for food. Judging was no exception. Anyway, at this particular tournament they had pizza for judges. I remember walking by and hearing a girl asking if there were any other options because she was a vegan. I quickly remembered that vegans don't eat cheese and that I had spaghetti and meatballs in my bag from last night's dinner. I quickly offered her my spaghetti and meatballs. She politely declined and I slowly remembered that vegans also don't eat meat.....
*Insert Evil Laughter Here*
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NerdGirl
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Re: #78104 - vegan missionary
^Lol. It's the thought that counts. I have a friend who is very much a helper by nature, and when we're at an event with food and there's nothing I can eat, he frequently says, "I have a granola bar in my bag you can have - oh, wait, no, you can't eat that either." It's very cute.