Casual Sexism Yay

[S.A.M.]

...she started crying because she was so scared about what they might do to her. I thought it was jumping to extreme conclusions that all men had malicious intent.

I'm in a couple of feminist groups on FB and have to admit I have rolled my eyes more than once at the things they complain about.

Huh. Seems like these statements minimize the feelings that accompany them, and their reaction to being treated poorly because of their gender. It seems you are calling them hypersensitive and suggests that they are overreacting and their feelings aren't valid.

Please help me see how this is different from vorpal blade's reaction to people finding sexism in the question's answer.

[Concorde]

"I thought" vs. Vorpal's more definitive statement that you HAVE to be oversensitive.

If he had expressed it as "I think you might be being a bit oversensitive" I wouldn't have been so frustrated with his commentary.


Also I see a marked difference between the two incidents. One involves a socially puzzling reaction that was specific to a single person (crying because you were looked at is not widely regarded by either gender as an appropriate response) and the other involves the systematic minimization of an entire gender. And let's be frank: There is a socially acceptable continuum of appropriate responses and actions to certain stimuli. Crying because a man looked at you is generally not considered a normal or socially acceptable response to that stimuli, and extreme behavior like that should probably not be rewarded. Telling someone (several people, actually) that they HAVE to be oversensitive or hysterical because they felt there was sexism (although unintentional) in a post and they wanted to correct it, is, in my opinion, not an appropriate response to that stimuli.

All emotion is valid and everyone is welcome to feel whatever they want. I certainly won't tell anyone what they can or cannot feel and that was not my intention with my phrasing. It was my emotional response to her emotional response.

[Concorde]

Also you're the one reading in hypersensitivity to my statement. It's not there. Vorpal actually said it, so there's no murky interpretation issue there.

[vorpal blade]

Really, you have got to be hypersensitive to finding sexism to think so.

You know, this statement absolutely infuriates me because it minimizes the feelings that accompany sexism and being treated poorly because of your gender. It minimizes my feelings by calling them hypersensitive and suggests that I'm overreacting and my feelings aren't valid. I'm not going to apologize for interpreting the answer in a sexist manner, because that's how I saw it. At the same time, I'm not going to pretend that it's impossible to view it in a completely non sexist manner as well. I know El didn't mean it that way and I have no ill will towards him, but I am definitely rather pissed that you are minimizing my feelings.

After giving it some thought, I’ve decided that I need to apologize for my comments. They were poorly expressed and have needlessly generated strife. I didn’t mean to minimize anyone’s feelings or suggest that they aren’t valid, but I can see how you would think I meant to say so. I certainly didn’t mean to say you had to be hysterical or overreacting to see sexism in the remark.

While I wasn’t trying to invalidate anyone’s feelings and I wasn’t looking for validation for my own feelings, I wasn’t expecting a vehement invalidation of MY feelings and to be attacked personally. As implied in your comments because of my “not an appropriate response” (feelings), I’m a horrible person for having such feelings; insensitive, closed-minded, unkind, and thoughtless. Perhaps you didn’t mean it that way, but that is the way it came across to me.

Nevertheless, I thank you for your honest feedback. Feedback is good…eventually. I think we have to be careful, however, to not shoot the messenger. If you get absolutely infuriated and attack someone when they say something you don’t like then perhaps you will shut off the kind of balanced feedback you need to assess the real situation.

I am sorry to hear of the discrimination shown against you. Those remarks sound very unkind and uncalled for. I’m sure such discrimination is real and it is harmful.

I shouldn’t have used the term “hypersensitive.” What I really meant was along the lines of having a confirmation bias, which I am sure, is also something real. I think this Wikipedia article on confirmation bias is interesting.

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

What I have found in discussing El-Ahrairah’s answer with my friends is that those who have been around feminists a lot, or are feminists, see the sexist interpretation as first or primary. My other friends have a difficult time seeing any sexism in the answer. Both feelings are valid, and both show the power of confirmation bias. As it turns out, however, only one interpretation is correct.

Sexism, in my opinion, is expecting negative behavior from the opposite gender, when that negative expectation is built on a false confirmation bias. It doesn’t matter whether you like the opposite gender or not. Men can be sexist and still love women. The same is true of women.

It is a strain on relationships whenever someone has a strong confirmation bias and you have to walk on tiptoes to avoid possibly giving offense when none was intended. Especially if they tend to bite the head off those who offend them with an opposing viewpoint.

It may surprise you to know that among most of my acquaintances the consensus is that men are much more discriminated against because of their gender than women are today. According to my friends, women are favored over men in promotions and in many other ways, and this trend is increasing. According to my wife I have been more discriminated against because I am a man than a typical woman is been discriminated against for being woman today.

So, we might have different biases, but can’t we still be friends?

[vorpal blade]

Tangentially related, but I think it important here to remember that just because someone isn't TRYING to be sexist (or racist or classist or whatever) doesn't mean they AREN'T. And even if it is unintentional, the onus is on them to correct the issue.

(Although, being a man, I wasn't offended, El-Ahrairah, I think it is good that you apologized.)

I agree, Marduk, that someone doesn’t need to be trying to be sexist in order to be sexist. You, me, Bobtheenchantedone, Concorde, Mic0 all might think we aren’t sexist, and still be sexist. If you have any negative viewpoints toward the other sex you may think that experience tells you that you are justified in your viewpoint, and you just might be fooled by confirmation bias. Even saying that the lack of equality is a negative thing might be a form of sexism.

INTERPRETING sexism in a remark doesn’t mean the remark IS sexist.

I agree that we all ought to be reasonably careful to avoid needlessly giving offense. Nevertheless, I think it is our responsibility as Christians to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, to be charitable in our judgments. If there are two ways to interpret a statement or action, and one of them makes you mad and confirms your bias that men (or women) have some particular negative trait, then the onus is on you to take the kinder interpretation.

[Concorde]

Thanks for your response. I wrote my response in anger, and I was admittedly projecting quite a bit. I apologize for my harsh words and can understand your feelings and point of view.

[vorpal blade]

Thank you Concorde. I feel better now. I am sorry for my role in your anger.

[Shrinky Dink]

Tangentially related, but I think it important here to remember that just because someone isn't TRYING to be sexist (or racist or classist or whatever) doesn't mean they AREN'T. And even if it is unintentional, the onus is on them to correct the issue.

(Although, being a man, I wasn't offended, El-Ahrairah, I think it is good that you apologized.)

I (female) used to work at a Boy Scout Camp with my cousin (also female). She worked in the kitchen. Often times, scoutmasters and scouts would ask, "Why is a girl at Boy Scout Camp?" and she would reply, "Would you want a guy cooking your food?" essentially countering sexism with sexism. She never had a scoutmaster reply to that.

Even though there are many great male chefs out there, we mostly think of women in the kitchen. And while there are many great females part of the BSA, we mostly think of men. (That summer we also had a female shooting sports director with her own pink rifle. When scoutmasters would question her qualifications she would show them her NRA membership.)