Rant of the Day

[Whistler]

Sheesh, we've been sick too! It's one of those awful colds that gets in your chest. I've been trying to stay away from crowds but someone still has to do the grocery shopping! (that someone was me...)

[Violet]

There's been a nasty stomach flu-y bug going around (one friend claimed all of Texas after she got sick, but I doubt that). I hope both of you get better soon.

[Tally M.]

A 50% chance of something working out is still a 50% chance of something not working out.

Therapy yesterday was pretty good with helping me to realize some things, but a couple of the other things it made me confront were not at all pleasant and I was doing pretty good at ignoring reality.

[Katya]

A 50% chance of something working out is still a 50% chance of something not working out.

Therapy yesterday was pretty good with helping me to realize some things, but a couple of the other things it made me confront were not at all pleasant and I was doing pretty good at ignoring reality.

<3

[TheBlackSheep]

Oh Tally. I've been having similar reactions to therapy lately. Boo. I hope you're doing well, in general.

[Tally M.]

Oh Tally. I've been having similar reactions to therapy lately. Boo. I hope you're doing well, in general.

Thanks, I mostly am, but I also realized last night that my hormones were being a little screwy, so that isn't helping the situation.

[Portia]

Horrible mombie commenter is horrible. Zed's advice was good and just because a kid's being a brat doesn't mean you should be so damned sensitive.

[Whistler]

I think it was good to have both points of view on that one.

[Digit]

Are small toddlers really that incapable of associating a negative consequence with their actions if so trained? Even lab rats can be trained in short order not to press a button through negative reinforcement. I have a nonviolent experiment idea. Every time the child does something they're not supposed to do, place something very putrid, like a bowl of durian, within six inches of their nose and track the frequency of that activity over time

[Rainbow_connection]

All the research I've read says that punishing toddlers has no (or negative) effect on their long-term behavior, although you can usually get them to stop the undesired behavior right then. I theorize it may be because children have more complex emotional needs than lab rats. So a lab rat is just choosing "how much do I want to press this button vs how much do I want to not get shocked?" A toddler gets a lot more joy from doing whatever they want than a rat gets from pressing a button. Also complicating matters is that toddlers have a really hard time with understanding that other people are leading separate lives and have separate reactions to things. They don't usually mean to hurt someone, but if headbutting another child doesn't hurt their head, they won't necessarily connect the dots that it's going to hurt their victim.

Edited to add: which is not to excuse parents for letting their toddlers put themselves or others in danger. Sometimes you just have to remove them from the situation for the safety of everyone involved.

[yayfulness]

So is there anything that does work to change toddlers' behavior?

[Rainbow_connection]

Positive reinforcement of desired behaviors and time. Neither of which is always very comforting when you're dealing with a toddler, but there it is.

[Shrinky Dink]

This was more when I was a kid (about 4-6 yrs old) but whenever I would hit a sibling, my dad would have me hit the wall. If I didn't hit the wall hard enough the first time, he would tell me to hit it again. I learned that I didn't like hitting my siblings because I would have to hit the wall and hitting the wall hurt. Eventually I realized that getting hit also hurt, but I was the youngest and the one doing most of the hitting.

I agree with the commentator that the friend will be likely be offended, but I agree with Zed that it is far more important to protect your own kid than to let them continually be hit and kicked.

I kind of hate how it seems that a lot of people are afraid to discipline their kids nowadays.

[TheBlackSheep]

Yeeeeeeeeeah, I used to work a lot with pretty violent little toddlers and you can help them change their problem behaviors, though I'd definitely agree with Rainbow that one would want to use mostly positive reinforcement. One of the things you have to remember with toddlers (and all people) is that a primary need is to feel safe with the people who are supposed to keep you safe, and they aren't old enough yet to comprehend serious punishments for behaviors that they don't understand are wrong. But yes, their behaviors can be influenced for the better, but you can't do that if you aren't the parent. Some toddlers are just more rough than other toddlers, but if mom isn't doing anything about it (a great natural consequence would be to have the child play alone until he or she can demonstrate a soft touch) why are we protecting her feelings? I agree that people are really touchy about parenting (I'm touchy about my parenting skills and I don't have any children), but why continue to put both kiddos in that troubling situation? Play with somebody else for the next few months. For your friend, model sticking up for your kid and model positive parenting techniques. For your child, model appropriate assertive communication. Your friend's precious fee-fees will survive. That's not to say you should be a jerk (and it's probably not worth it to try and tell her how to parent) but be assertive for crying out loud.

For the group's edification, things that I have found work with even tough toddlers, if applied consistently:
- say what you can do, not what you can't do ("We walk inside," or, "You can run when we are playing outside," rather than, "Don't run in the house!")
- be specific ("Use soft touch," or, "Use kind words," rather than, "Be nice." "We keep our paint on the paper," rather than, "Don't make a mess!")
- give choices (so many negative situations can be avoided if you can find choices--"Do you want to walk or skip to the car?" "Do you want to eat your peaches first or your sandwich first?" "Do you want to give your friend the car or the dinosaur?"--don't beg or plead--be confident--giving small choices throughout the day, even if you aren't try to avoid a come-apart helps the toddler feel more autonomous which helps them need to assert their independence in less destructive ways)
- phrase directions/consequences stating the benefit first ("We will go outside when you are wearing your shoes," or, "You may play with your friends when you have a calm body," rather than, "Sit down and be quiet so we can have dinner.")
- validate, validate, validate (I can't tell you how many times I've told a toddler, "That made you so mad!" and that ended the tantrum--help kiddos identify emotions and model appropriate ways to self-regulate)
- wait out tantrums (getting upset or trying to fix it won't help anybody--practice your zen powers--once it's over jump in, give love, validate, and talk the situation over in simple terms, like 10-20 words tops)
- model appropriate expressions of emotions ("I feel angry so I'm going to stomp my feet," "I cry when I'm sad," or, "I really want to use this so I'm going to ask.")
- positive reinforcement out the yin (genuine compliments, sharing feelings, dancing, hugs, and cheering all work--don't make kiddo act out to get attention--remember that while toddlers are asserting their independence, you are the center of their world and they want to please you and be like you)
- let kiddo know you love them no matter what, then attach your comments to their behaviors ("You listened when I asked you to sit down!" rather than, "You're such a good girl.")
- BE CALM (toddlers only know you are in control--what would you do if the person you thought was in control, God let's say, was suddenly out of control? What if God was out of control because of your behavior, even if that behavior was totally normal?)
- identify emotions in others and encourage kiddo to practice (that's for long-term payoff)
- don't set the kiddo up for failure (make sure there is enough structure with a predictable schedule--forecast changes repeatedly--avoid situations that are obviously going to be terrible while providing chances for your kiddo to develop--don't expect your kiddo to do things which are not developmentally appropriate [ex., most toddlers can be taught to take turns, though it takes time, but toddlers CANNOT share. They don't understand what it means and it's just beyond them. Asking a toddler to share is like asking me to speak Chinese. I might want to but I can't])
- use natural consequences (kiddo is hitting so kiddo has to play alone--kiddo throws food after being asked not to [once] so kiddo is done eating--kiddo is being rough with the book so kiddo can't use the book for a while--follow through 100% of the time--time-outs are not a good solution for toddlers because it doesn't obviously fit the "crime" so lessons get lost, and it's what I call "kid jail" meaning there are probably more effective solutions)
- teach your kid what you actually want to teach them (ask yourself, "What do I want kiddo to learn from this?" and go from there--never start with anger or with a sense of righteous indignation or "justice"--this is a toddler we are talking about--for this reason, please don't bite toddlers that bite)

Apparently I have feelings about that.

[Whistler]

yay! I wanted to read your advice for dealing with toddlers, TBS. Thanks!

[Portia]

My normal equanimous brother received a red coat around his 4th birthday which gave him "poof action." This made him into a temporary monster. I was very small for my age and did not appreciate getting the s*** beaten out of me.

His punishment was, as I recall, having to put mountains of Beanie Babies in a trash bag and having them taken away.

Like Allie, though, the only thing that stopped his behavior was having the psychologically-Hulk-like coat taken away. Something about the red color turned on his lizard brain. (I think 4 is old enough to have some nebulous though not great ToM.)

[Zedability]

Late to the party here, but I kinda figured my advice could still offend an over sensitive mom. I just figure that if your kid getting beat up on bothers you and your kid so much, saying it as nicely as possible is as much effort as you can reasonably be expected to give to the other mom. #possibleunpopularopinion

[Portia]

Late to the party here, but I kinda figured my advice could still offend an over sensitive mom. I just figure that if your kid getting beat up on bothers you and your kid so much, saying it as nicely as possible is as much effort as you can reasonably be expected to give to the other mom. #possibleunpopularopinion

Yes because all moms are saints. Eyeroll. No wonder kids are entitled; the pendulum has swung TOO FAR

Anyone who takes offense is being a bratty toddler themselves.

[NerdGirl]

I thought that was good advice, Zed. The questioner isn't going to be able to do anything about her friend's parenting interactions or the other kid's behavior, so politely explaining why her kid needs to take a break from playing with the other kid seems like the best thing to do.

And totally agree with everything TBS said.

[Emiliana]

Blech, that's no fun.

I've been sick on and off for two weeks, too. Fortunately school just let out, but I missed graduation and I'm currently missing training.

See this post, dated June 11?

Yeah, my ear is still sore and congested from this. Next step might end up being a tube in the ear, because the fluid is behind the eardrum. Hoping it doesn't come to that....I didn't even know they did this for adults.