59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

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Re: 59155 - What if were Mormon extremists?

Post by vorpal blade »

habiba wrote:If we're going with the "insensitive" argument you have to look at the other side. What about the non-terrorist Muslims that died as well? There were Muslims on the planes, in the buildings, and among emergency responders. It's a disgrace to their memory and sacrifice that celebration of their culture is viewed unacceptable within a certain radius of where they died.
Ever since habiba posted this I have been trying to look at the other side. I could tell you what I would think as a Muslim, but since I have never been a Muslim (that I know of) I could be criticized for not understanding. Then I imagined that it was Mormon extremists who hijacked the planes and flew them into American icons. At the risk of being criticized for not using a perfect parallel or analogy I will explain how I would feel, turning it around and looking at it from the other side.

I would be shocked and devastated to learn that a group of well-funded, well-prepared, well-supported Mormons had killed themselves and thousands of innocent civilians in the name of Mormonism and the prophet Joseph Smith. I would want everyone in the whole world to know that these extremists did not represent my views. That I did not support them, that I would never accept any benefits from what they did, and that I would work vigorously to support anyone who wished to condemn these terrorists and work to see that it didn't happen again. So far I'm sure there are some Muslims who feel the same way about the 9/11 attacks as what I have described.

Next, suppose that a group of businessmen decided to build some sort of facility to spread Mormonism through proselyting, a prayer room, and other forms of “outreach,” buying a piece of property that was close enough to the twin towers that debris from one of the hijacked planes had landed on a building on the property. Two of the most prominent and important members of this group are Mormons that I had never heard anything good about, and for some unknown reason they were keeping the identity of the other businessmen a secret. Then this group of businessmen find a well-known moderate businessman and Mormon church leader to be the principle fund-raiser, letting people think that it is his peaceful, evangelical Mormon organization which is in charge of building a huge Mormon church meetinghouse The businessmen, however, will apparently control the use of the building.

Now, I know that many people will know enough about Mormonism to know that the particular sect from which this Mormon church leader is a part, is considered to be quite peaceful. This will help in the publicity. But I also know that it doesn't make that much difference, because a Mormon building by one sect will be used freely by Mormons of every other sect. Not that it makes any difference, but it still isn't clear which sect will own the building and be in charge. Also, moderate Mormons fear to offend the Mormon extremists, and with good reason.

I would expect opposition, because frankly you can't tell the difference when you look at a Mormon what sect he belongs to. Nor can you tell from the type of building he builds. Nor would that building be for the exclusive use of only peaceful, moderate Mormons. I would understand that the offending principle would be the reminder that it was Mormons who did the killing, and they did it in the name of Mormonism. My support would be for those who wished to uphold the idea that Mormon extremism should not be tolerated. I would support keeping Mormon buildings out of the Ground Zero area as a statement that I am vehemently opposed to Mormon terrorism.

Would I feel that my religious rights have been violated? No. Why would I, knowing that there are many other Mormon church buildings in New York City (there are over 200 mosques in New York City)? There is no problem with Mormons owning church buildings in those locations. No restrictions on religious worship, just building a certain kind of building in one particular small part of Manhattan. Besides, this strikes me as more of a business deal than a religious cause.

Would I feel that my freedom of assembly was being taken away? No. There are plenty of places where I am free to assemble. Besides, I know that Mormons are already assembling in prayer rooms at the newly purchased Burlington Coat Factory where the Mormon cultural building is to be built. They don't need to turn the building into a “Mega-Mormon Monument” in order to assemble even there. And no one is protesting this assembly of Mormons at Ground Zero.

Would I feel that my civil rights were being violated, or my First Amendment rights? Maybe, a little bit. But to blindly insist on every possible right, regardless of how much harm it does, seems fanatical to me. A wiser course of action, and ultimately leading to greater freedoms and rights, would be to back off and respect those of other faiths that I agree with, that we do not want to give even the slightest impression that we sympathize or support Mormon extremists.

Yes, there were Mormons who died on the planes, in the buildings, and among emergency responders. And it would disgrace their memory and sacrifice if anything within Ground Zero could be construed as a celebration of the extremist culture of the radical Mormons.

So, do we give others more rights and privileges than we would give ourselves?
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Marduk »

Wow Vorpal, that argument is so strewn with flaws left and right that it is hard to know where to begin. Um, let's start with this:
vorpal blade wrote:...well-prepared, well-supported Mormons had killed themselves and thousands of innocent civilians in the name of Mormonism...
Already your argument is flawed. A better analogy would be "Christian", as we've already discussed. Islam is as fragmented as Christianity in terms of diversity of belief. Nonetheless, we'll grant this for the sake of the argument, even though this point alone destroys any validity of your further analysis.
vorpal blade wrote:I would want everyone in the whole world to know that these extremists did not represent my views.
There are Mormon extremists doing things that I'm sure you disagree with, as well as other Christian extremists. How far do you go to ensure you're not lumped in with, say, abortion clinic bombers?
vorpal blade wrote:Next, suppose that a group of businessmen decided to build some sort of facility to spread Mormonism through proselyting, a prayer room, and other forms of “outreach,” buying a piece of property that was close enough to the twin towers that debris from one of the hijacked planes had landed on a building on the property.
First off, every religious structure can be seen as your example. You're trying to make it out as though this is some sort of foothold in America where the terrible message of Islam will be spread. As you mention, there's already 200+ mosques in New York (a figure which I question, but it is immaterial whether it is true or not) so it isn't as though this facility would make those things possible, where previously they weren't.
vorpal blade wrote:because a Mormon building by one sect will be used freely by Mormons of every other sect.
So are you suggesting here that Muslims attempt to kick out from building usage those who they disagree with? By that logic the sign on every LDS chapel that states "visitors welcome" is an invitation to use our facilities as terrorist headquarters.
vorpal blade wrote:My support would be for those who wished to uphold the idea that Mormon extremism should not be tolerated.
Which is what Imam Rauf has said. You would expect people to take you at your word when you say Mormon extremism should not be tolerated, yet you do not allow us to take him at his word? Why the hypocrisy?
vorpal blade wrote:besides, this strikes me as more of a business deal than a religious cause.
Whatever else you may say, this certainly hasn't been for financial gain. When you buy a location for a planned business, and then are instantly offered a 125% return on your investment, you take it and find another location. I'll grant that this doesn't mean there are no ulterior motives, but it makes it almost impossible that those motives are financial in nature.
vorpal blade wrote:Would I feel that my freedom of assembly was being taken away? No. There are plenty of places where I am free to assemble.
That's not the point, and never has been. To tell a group that they cannot assemble in a specific location precisely because of their religious affiliation is to violate that right. Now, if there were some sort of other hazard in play here, that could be considered, but the only thing we're saying is we don't like them because of their religious affiliation. That cannot be grounds for relocation, ever.
vorpal blade wrote:wiser course of action, and ultimately leading to greater freedoms and rights, would be to back off and respect those of other faiths that I agree with, that we do not want to give even the slightest impression that we sympathize or support Mormon extremists.
In my opinion, that is precisely what is happening here. I grant that you don't think that to be the case, but that's a matter of your visceral reaction, not based on what has been said or proposed. It is just as easy to see this building as a monument to peaceful religious expression everywhere, in spite of the actions of some extremists.
vorpal blade wrote:And no one is protesting this assembly of Mormons at Ground Zero.
Wrong. Right now there are protests regarding the assemblage of Muslims there, regardless of what kind of structure it is. And this is not the only place Muslims are being protested. It seems that there are many who believe any Islamic meetinghouse is a terrorist command center.
vorpal blade wrote:And it would disgrace their memory and sacrifice if anything within Ground Zero could be construed as a celebration of the extremist culture of the radical Mormons.
People will construe things how they wish. We cannot guard our actions against every possible misconstrual, and we certainly cannot expect others to.

You've consistently demanded that your side of the argument be given complete analysis, presenting the best possible case for it, and time after time, have accused many here of failing to do so. In the time I've seen you post here, I have never once felt that you've given an accurate portrayal of the other side. Instead, I see you twist words, use oblique and inaccurate analogies, hurl insults, accuse others of bigotry and abuse, all in an attempt to get yourself heard, and "demonize the opposition."

The fact of the matter is, the conservative voice is something this forum needs, sometimes very desperately. I do commend you for often providing this voice, but I must now demand that you do so in a way that remains kind, and accurately represents the opposition. You've demanded integrity in the portrayal of your arguments, Vorpal, I now request that you give the same.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Craig Jessop »

@Marduk: I'd just like to point out that Mormonism is as fragmented as any other branch of Christianity. I can loan you a book about it if you'd like.

Anyway. Carry on.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Marduk »

Craig Jessop wrote:@Marduk: I'd just like to point out that Mormonism is as fragmented as any other branch of Christianity. I can loan you a book about it if you'd like.

Anyway. Carry on.
Specific branch. I'm aware of how fragmented Mormonism is. Now take that in a larger context including those fragments, the fragments of Presbyterianism, Catholicism, Methodism, etc. etc. And we get a huge diversity of beliefs that include the far reaches of fundamentalist Mormons, Greek Orthodox Catholics, Quakers, Seventh Day Aventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and literally hundreds more, and we begin to get an idea of why we can't lump all of Islam together.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

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Marduk wrote: You've consistently demanded that your side of the argument be given complete analysis, presenting the best possible case for it, and time after time, have accused many here of failing to do so. In the time I've seen you post here, I have never once felt that you've given an accurate portrayal of the other side. Instead, I see you twist words, use oblique and inaccurate analogies, hurl insults, accuse others of bigotry and abuse, all in an attempt to get yourself heard, and "demonize the opposition."

The fact of the matter is, the conservative voice is something this forum needs, sometimes very desperately. I do commend you for often providing this voice, but I must now demand that you do so in a way that remains kind, and accurately represents the opposition. You've demanded integrity in the portrayal of your arguments, Vorpal, I now request that you give the same.
I was really surprised by these criticisms. It certainly isn't the way I see myself. I apologize if I have inadvertently (because I assure you, it wasn't on purpose) been unkind to anyone in this forum, if I have displayed a lack of integrity, if I have unfairly accused my brethren of doing the same, if I have twisted any of your words, if any of you have felt that I hurled insults at you, or if I have accused anyone of bigotry or abuse, or if I have in any way demonized you. I honestly do not feel guilty of any of these crimes, but if you honestly feel that I am, then I am sorry for what I wrote, and I'll try to do better in the future.

If there is a future, because this is frankly discouraging.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by habiba »

Not that this is entirely relevant to the discussion, but I was at Ground Zero today (public transit transfer) and in the one block I was above ground I saw a man holding a sign with a picture of Bush 41 and the Park51 logo that said "Miss me yet? I never would have allowed this trash" and another handing out pamphlets on why Islam is of the devil and will cause the destruction of the world. On the way back there was a lady wearing a t-shirt that said "waterboarding instructor" that was yelling stuff about how "we'll see how they like what we do to their building".

It was disheartening. Expected (not unlike our dear friends that always protest General Conference), but disheartening.

I don't think you can even remotely compare bulldozing a cemetery to building a community center a few blocks away in an empty building. That's absurd.

Their website is: http://blog.park51.org/ (just FYI if you haven't seen it)

I have nothing else important to add, just that it's important to distinguish between political Islam and Islam the religion. Being a part of the KKK or Army of God is not reflective of being Christian just as being part of Al-Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood is not reflective of being Muslim.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Craig Jessop »

habiba, by chance did you go to Queens today?
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Yarjka »

habiba wrote:I was at Ground Zero today (public transit transfer) and in the one block I was above ground I saw a man holding a sign with a picture of Bush 41 and the Park51 logo that said "Miss me yet? I never would have allowed this trash" and another handing out pamphlets on why Islam is of the devil and will cause the destruction of the world. On the way back there was a lady wearing a t-shirt that said "waterboarding instructor" that was yelling stuff about how "we'll see how they like what we do to their building".
Couldn't they move the public protest a couple of blocks further away from Ground Zero, so as not to disrespect the hallowed ground that it is? New York is a big city, there are lots of places to protest that would allow Ground Zero to remain a place of reflection and mourning.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by habiba »

No, there was a regional YSA sacrament meeting at the Lincoln Center. But I did see a lot of people from Queens that you would probably know. Most of the Woodside kids.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

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habiba wrote:No, there was a regional YSA sacrament meeting at the Lincoln Center. But I did see a lot of people from Queens that you would probably know. Most of the Woodside kids.
Oh fun. I'm more than slightly jealous.

Anyway. Carry on, ya'll.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Marduk »

Vorpal, that was a piece of criticism intended to cause self-analysis and focus on change. I'm sorry if it was disheartening, I'm sorry if I offended. Listen to what was said, search your actions to see if there is any merit in them, and adjust your behavior accordingly. As I've said, your viewpoints are certainly something that is needed here; I just requested that you take greater effort to follow your own advice. If you honestly cannot see any merit in what I have said, and think I'm just hurling personal attacks, I could go through with you and point out things that you have done that I'm certain have not come across as you've intended. But I'm sure if you look you can see.

So don't ignore it, don't get offended, don't feel attacked. Just search your behavior and redouble efforts to improve it.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by vorpal blade »

Marduk wrote:Vorpal, that was a piece of criticism intended to cause self-analysis and focus on change. I'm sorry if it was disheartening, I'm sorry if I offended. Listen to what was said, search your actions to see if there is any merit in them, and adjust your behavior accordingly. As I've said, your viewpoints are certainly something that is needed here; I just requested that you take greater effort to follow your own advice. If you honestly cannot see any merit in what I have said, and think I'm just hurling personal attacks, I could go through with you and point out things that you have done that I'm certain have not come across as you've intended. But I'm sure if you look you can see.

So don't ignore it, don't get offended, don't feel attacked. Just search your behavior and redouble efforts to improve it. {emphasis added}
After a careful review of what I have written, and prayerful self-analysis, I can honestly and cheerfully say that there is no merit whatsoever in what you have said about me. You were just hurling personal, unfounded, gratuitous attacks.

I don’t see any point in your going through and looking for things that you know that I did not intend. That would amount to a deliberate twisting or distorting in order to support the numerous insults you have given. Why have you done this? What does it say about you when you choose to take something in a way you know I did not intend?

I cannot help the way people choose to interpret me, especially when they know I did not intend it in the way they nevertheless interpret me. I am not responsible for that. There is nothing I can do to change that. The problem does not lie with me, Marduk, but with you.

So (in your own words) don’t ignore it, don’t get offended, and don’t feel attacked. Just search your behavior and redouble efforts to improve it.

I accept your apologies for mocking me and giving offense to me. I’m glad to get that out of the way, it was weighing me down. I’m feeling much better now.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Cognoscente »

Whoa. Deja vu.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Craig Jessop »

Okay, some moderator needs to declare this discussion closed. It has gotten out of hand.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

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Cognoscente wrote:Whoa. Deja vu.
i know, right?
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Marduk »

I've debated simply locking this thread, and I may still do so (Bob locked it for a bit, then thought better of it. Some of the other admins may still lock, or entirely discard it. I leave it to their discretion) but before that happens, I wanted to address a few concerns folks may have here.

Let me say, Vorpal, contrary to what some may believe, I have not enjoyed saying the things to you that I have said. I absolutely hate it. I don't like confrontations of this nature, I wish I didn't have to do it, I wish everyone would just play nice. Sometimes it is necessary, however, to make these sort of addresses, no matter how contrary it is to our nature. When I feel the motivations of the spirit in this regard, there is but one answer, and that is to obey. I do not say them to belittle you, I do not say them out of spite, and as I've mentioned, I'd rather not say them at all.

Vorpal, it may be hard for you to believe this, but I love you. I love you as much as someone can reaching across an electronic network to a man I've never even met. It saddens me on a very personal level to see you given counsel over and over again, only to turn it aside or attack those who would give advice. I've often prayed for how to help you, and I feel as though I've been given some inspiration (as much as one can for a friend and a brother) before, but I question if it has done any good, when I see you return to the same patterns. Many have suggested to me that it is a lost cause, that I should learn to stop caring about you. But I can't. It isn't in my nature. My mother taught me that we don't give up on those we see making poor decisions. Not ever. And so though others might, I won't give up on you.

As my father has said, any time we make a decision in haste or in anger, it is always the wrong one. I have prayed that I may have no anger in my heart towards you (or any others, for that matter). I'm certain that at times I've failed, but I'm trying the best I can, and I think I have been successful for the most part. I know with regards to what I've said toward you in this particular thread, I feel no guilt or remorse. I said what I felt to say as moved upon by the spirit, and that is all I can do. I've tried time and again to chide you more gently, but those are usually ignored. So now that I've tried to do so a bit more forcefully, I've seen you turn on me. Even though I feel those attacks to be unjustified, I bear no ill will toward you.

I've tried the best I can to understand why it is that you are so unwilling to recieve admonition from anyone here. Maybe you take offense at someone reaching over a chasm of almost forty years, and that your years have given you more wisdom than any here. Time, coupled with obedience and diligence, unlock the mysteries of heaven to our eyes, it is true. But realize that different paths in life lead to different lessons, and we may have trodden on different ground that gives us understanding which you may not have. Everyone calling themselves a disciple of Christ must be willing to recieve counsel from every source, when it is accurate and true.

Maybe you feel as though we are speaking contrary to things you've recieved a testimony of. I urge you to listen to the promptings of the spirit, and try to seperate what is of God and what is of man. This is something at which all of us fail in some regard, mistaking divine principles for those of men, or assigning divinity to mortal philosophy.

When all else fails, it has been my policy that to be kind is better than to antagonize. Certainly no one, myself included, can say that they have been as kind as possible, and more kindness is always a good thing. So if none of these words reach you, if all else fails, take with you this instruction, have more kindness to all, especially those with whom you disagree.

I love you my brother. I'm leaving this thread open for a while, in case you (or anyone else, for that matter) wishes to respond. You may feel no need to, and that's fine as well, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to speak, if you felt the need. Just please, everyone, be kind and thoughtful.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by vorpal blade »

And I love you, Marduk. And for this reason I want you to know that you are mistaken about me. I am not above taking advice or counsel from anyone here. I listen to all the counsel given, pray about it, do a lot of soul searching, and follow what I consider to be what the Lord wants me to do. I know you believe you are in the right, as I believe I am in the right. You have friends who urge you to think unkindly of me, and wish to marginalize me because I speak the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.

There are many in this forum who agree with me, that I am not the one giving insults, speaking unkindly, not playing nice, or at fault at all. Generally these kind and objective people do not like to get involved in controversies, especially when it means going against someone popular.

I have not turned on you, nor have I attacked you any more than can be said of you. Obviously your criticism of me was motivated by love, as was my criticism of you. Your advice is good, and I will follow it. I ask that you be particularly careful to follow the same advice. It is so hard to cast out the mote in our neighbor's eye when our own vision is blocked by the beam in our own eye. And I take that to heart that it could just as well apply to me as to you.

Well, moving on. What I have been trying to do is provide some insight into what the majority of Americans are thinking when they oppose the Ground Zero Mosque. Of course not all of them think alike, but I believe I have an idea of what most of them are thinking, and I did not feel that their point of view had been adequately presented. I have not felt it necessary to present the point of view of those who support the GZM. There are plenty of articulate, intelligent individuals in this forum who can do a wonderful job of presenting that view, and I wouldn’t want to inadvertently misrepresent that view by my own interpretation of it. I am not criticizing anyone for supporting religious freedom and civil liberties. I think supporting our rights is a good thing to do.

I would like to pose a question. Before you make a judgment on my motives for asking the question, please hear me out. The question is this: Would you be opposed to the Park51 project if the Wahhabi Sunni Muslims (the “branch” of Islam the 9/11 terrorists are said to have come from) were behind it instead of the Sufi Muslims?
Now, for some it doesn’t matter. For some people it wouldn’t matter if Osama bin Laden was behind the GZM instead of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Apparently Yellow is of that opinion, and I respect his opinion. I would now like to address those for whom it does make a difference (and answered yes).

Sauron states
The people building the Park51 community center across from the World Trade Center are Sufi.
And, incidentally, the Sufi have been the targets of attacks by the Taliban. Do you see why treating the Muslims of Park51 as if they were in the same congregation as the WTC terrorist hijackers is a really stupendous logical fail? Are you starting to see why The Economist wrote that "Every single argument put forward for blocking this project leans in some way on the misconceived notion that all Muslims, and Islam itself, share the responsibility for, or are tainted by, the atrocities of 9/11." And, finally, can you see why the hypothetical situations you posed highlight the central logical fallacy of the anti-Mosque crowd?
Since Sauron believes this to be the central logical “fallacy” of those opposed to the GZM let me address this “fallacy.” First, are the people building the Park51 community center Sufi? Well, apparently Imam Rauf is Sufi, but Imam Rauf is only one person helping to build the community center. After the center is built he will be just one of a number of directors (if he is one at all). Who exactly are the other people involved? They very likely are or will be from Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabi Sunnis dominate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi
Its [Saudi Arabia’s] largess funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith", throughout the Muslim world, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian. It extended to young and old, from children's madrasas to high-level scholarship. "Books, scholarships, fellowships, mosques" (for example, "more than 1500 mosques were built from Saudi public funds over the last 50 years") were paid for. It rewarded journalists and academics, who followed it; built satellite campuses around Egypt for Al Azhar, the oldest and most influential Islamic university. The financial power of Wahhabist advocates, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew, has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam and has caused the Saudi interpretation to be perceived as the "gold standard" of religion in many Muslims' minds.
The Saudis have spent at least $87 billion propagating Wahhabism abroad during the past two decades, and the scale of financing is believed to have increased in the past two years, as oil prices have skyrocketed. The bulk of this funding goes towards the construction and operating expenses of mosques, madrassas, and other religious institutions that preach Wahhabism. It also supports the training of imams; domination of mass media and publishing outlets; distribution of Wahhabi textbooks and other literature; and endowments to universities (in exchange for influence over the appointment of Islamic scholars).
At this point it is speculation as to where the estimated $100 million to build the center will come from, or who the actual backers and promoters are for the Park51 project. But I think we can be sure it won’t be just the small Sufi branch of Islam.

Much was made in Sauron’s answer of how many divisions there are in the Muslim world and comparisons were made to Catholic and Protestant denominations. I don’t think the analogy is a good one. In the Christian world if the Catholics build a church building there is no question of who owns the building, what doctrine will be taught in the building, what denomination the priests will come from, and what the forms of worship will be. Those of other faiths will be welcome to worship in the building, but it will be on the Catholic’s terms. By and large Catholics will go to their own building and Baptists (for example) will go to their own building because of their differences.

I don’t believe it works the same way in the Islamic faith. There is no central authority, no ecclesiastical hierarchy, no separate denominations per se in the Muslim world. To be sure, there are significant doctrinal differences between the various branches, but those differences do not affect which mosque they feel comfortable worshipping in. They share the same mosques. If a group headed by a Sufi Imam builds a mosque those who go to the mosque will be primarily those who live near the mosque. These may be Sufi, or Shi’ite, or Sunni, depending on the particular local population. And the forms of worship will be the same. Muslims worshipping at the Park51 project will be in the same congregation as the WTC terrorist hijackers. Also, just because the Imam is Sufi does not mean that he gets to determine what doctrine is taught in that building, or that he owns the building. Considering the tremendous power of the Saudi Arabian influence I think it is highly likely that more Wahhabism than Sufism will be taught at Park 51. Because of the brotherhood of Islam, which can be a good thing, the Ground Zero Mosque will in fact be just as much a Wahhabi Sunni Mosque as a Sufi Mosque, regardless of the personal beliefs of the principle Imam.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Marduk »

I'll answer your question first, as it is my notion that your assumption that this will color the rest of my response is fairly accurate, at least in this case. I don't think it matters what religious sect anyone who builds it or worships there is of, as their style of worship is different than ours.

Let's assume your assessment of divisions within Islam is accurate (I don't believe it to be, but I'll grant it for the time being). Based on this assumption, the type of service is very different from what we would consider to be a typical church service. That is the reason why (again, assuming your colorization is accurate, which again, I don't believe) different sects can worship together; they are not preached to by a minister of a different sect (I use minister because it is what we'd be more familiar with), they meet there to associate with others who share (most) of their faith, and to pray and in general, worship individually. This is different than what we are used to (and some may argue, better, as it allows more introspection and direct communication with God, but that's a topic for another thread) but it means that since it will be of use for ALL, we cannot condemn it. Let's assume there was a Mormon extremist who bombed an abortion clinic, then a new LDS chapel went up a few blocks away. Would he be restricted from worshipping there? Absolutely not. Hence we have to not discriminate against a particular sect just because they would be free to (and likely to) worship there.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Imogen »

vorpal blade wrote:
I don’t believe it works the same way in the Islamic faith. There is no central authority, no ecclesiastical hierarchy, no separate denominations per se in the Muslim world. To be sure, there are significant doctrinal differences between the various branches, but those differences do not affect which mosque they feel comfortable worshipping in. They share the same mosques. If a group headed by a Sufi Imam builds a mosque those who go to the mosque will be primarily those who live near the mosque. These may be Sufi, or Shi’ite, or Sunni, depending on the particular local population. And the forms of worship will be the same. Muslims worshipping at the Park51 project will be in the same congregation as the WTC terrorist hijackers. Also, just because the Imam is Sufi does not mean that he gets to determine what doctrine is taught in that building, or that he owns the building. Considering the tremendous power of the Saudi Arabian influence I think it is highly likely that more Wahhabism than Sufism will be taught at Park 51. Because of the brotherhood of Islam, which can be a good thing, the Ground Zero Mosque will in fact be just as much a Wahhabi Sunni Mosque as a Sufi Mosque, regardless of the personal beliefs of the principle Imam.
this is actually not true. at least, not completely. my dad is a Shi'ite Muslim, and when he goes to mosque he doesn't go to a Sunni mosque because there are fairly extreme doctrinal differences between the branches, nevermind Sufism. Sufis are often not even considered Muslims by some people because of how different their worship style and beliefs are from mainstream Islam. The same thing is actually true of Catholics. There are branches of the Catholic church, and never the two shall meet. Vatican II had an extreme impact on the Catholic church, and while on the surface things are similar, the doctrine is VEEEEEEERY different in churches that do not accept that document. Plus, Lower Manhattan's Muslim population probably ISN'T mostly made up of Wahabi Muslims. They're probably Sunni Muslims from all over the Muslim world and while some people will go to the mosque for convenience, many will travel far to go worship at the place they feel most comfortable. As I understand it LDS people have specific places they're supposed to go to, but the same is not true of most other religions. I don't go to mass close to my house because I HATE modern masses with rock music and casual dress. I go to mass at the local cathedral (which is about 15 minutes away as opposed to 3 minutes) because I like old school choir music and people wearing their Sunday best. My dad goes to mosque about 30 minutes from his house because he wants to go to a Shi'ite mosque. My mom goes to the Baptist church in her hometown instead of the one her husband goes to because she wants gospel music and to be with her family, not quiet services. Plus, it's not like someone can just walk into a mosque and just teach whatever they want. The principal imam will organize speakers and events the align with what he believes is correct, just like any other religious leader would. i'm sure he won't let any random person off the street come into his place of work/worship and do and say things he feels are against the Quran.
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Re: 59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

Post by Waldorf and Sauron »

Hey guys, I don't have time to make much of a contribution here, but I'd like to point out this thing that Vorpal said:

"I don’t see any point in your going through and looking for things that you know that I did not intend."

I think this applies nicely to other facets of the overall discussion.

Love you all.
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