Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

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bobtheenchantedone
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by bobtheenchantedone »

Dragon Lady wrote:Bub, bob. I don't know many women who ever studied accounting or law. Even when I was single. I don't know anyone in my wards who studied anything of the sort in school. So in my social circle, the women I know *are* fulfilling their desires and passions.

Ok, I thought of one that *maybe* fits your qualifications. I have a friend that stays home with twin 1-year old babies who still finds time to research and write papers about the Bible. She recently presented at a conference. And she intends on going back to school and pursuing it more fully when her children are grown.
These things just come easily to mind for me because I'm taking a women in business class full of middle-aged who are all earning business degrees. Most of them are also Mormon, and many of the presenters we have are Mormon as well, so we have a fair amount of discussion on what backlash they see in the culture. I actually sometimes feel a little like an interloper there, since I'm a vocal performance major taking creative writing (and, hopefully starting next semester, photography) classes on the side. And even the business that I feel grants me access is a crafty one that currently has little to no chances of scaling!

I also had reason to interview a female professor at BYU recently, and heard some things about the feelings toward female professors that shocked me.
The Epistler was quite honestly knocked on her ethereal behind by the sheer logic of this.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Imogen »

All this thread has done is make me more glad I'm Catholic. I know that's snarky, but it's so, so true.
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Portia
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Portia »

I've enjoyed reading everyone's perspectives.

I am childless by choice, but that doesn't mean I hate kids (false), men (false), or marriage (false).

I fear that by feeling "comfortable" or "accepted" we can overlook what are, in my mind, larger issues of equality and opportunity within the Church.

I don't feel out of place in the ward, or whatever. I'm a fairly conformist person, let's be honest. I am neither a crafty, female-heavy industry person, nor am I a professional with an advanced degree. I make a median salary and while a college degree was necessary, I don't think I'm breaking down any glass ceilings. All my serious, long-term boyfriends have at the very least been raised LDS, though most have become inactive. All were supportive of me going to college and working, because they're not idiots.

So, it's not an image or PR problem. It's a doctrine problem. Not all women get their greatest joy and happiness from their family life. My family life has mostly been a heap of pain, trouble, and sorrow.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by vorpal blade »

Have any of you seen the recent blog post by LDS writer Seth Adam Smith called "Marriage isn't for you?" I've seen it in a number of places. It seems to have gone viral, striking a responsive note today. http://sethadamsmith.com/2013/11/02/mar ... t-for-you/

I think the point of the blog is in this part:
My dad giving his response to my concerns was such a moment for me. With a knowing smile he said, “Seth, you’re being totally selfish. So I’m going to make this really simple: marriage isn’t for you. You don’t marry to make yourself happy, you marry to make someone else happy.
Any thoughts on this blog? I think it relates to the topic at hand.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by UffishThought »

Someone on facebook linked to a response to that, that I liked. http://centerforwomenspsychology.wordpr ... me-really/

Its basic point is here:
Altruism isn’t sustainable long-term. You can’t draw from an empty glass. Neither is unbridled narcissism. So, there’s got to be a way for the two to interact. When both ideas are considered together, each idea (selflessness and self-interest) becomes complete. It’s not an either/or, but a both/and situation.
Anyway, I think it's more complicated than the original article made it sound. Yes, you should love your spouse and try to serve them, but it's a two way street. Your spouse should also be loving you and trying to serve you. And both of you need to let yourselves be served sometimes, or you accomplish nothing.

I think the issue of this thread is more complicated than the title makes it, too. It assumes there can be a simple yes or no, but that's obviously untrue. And "rule" is such a loaded word that means different things to different people in different contexts. So we've got a question that presents a false dichotomy in nebulous terminology: no wonder feelings run high!

Skipping all the context of what's come before because I forget exactly what was said and don't care to go back and read it, here's my opinion on the question:

Whoever spends most time in the home--does the majority of the decorating, cleaning, cooking, child-rearing--is likely to have more say in what happens in those arenas. Stereotypically, this is the woman, but it could also be the man. If you're the one who plans the meals, they're likely to reflect your tastes a little more. If you're the one that cleans the house, then you've thought through and have an opinion on where everything goes and what's most effective. If you're the one home with the kids all day (and this is totally theoretical for me, since I have no children), you've got a more practical idea of who your children are and how they respond to different parenting strategies, and you probably get a little edge in what those strategies are going to be, for that reason. Again, this is usually the woman, but if the woman were in an office all day and the man was at home doing those things, then he'd be the one with the extra knowledge of home and children, and so his preferences would carry slightly more weight. That doesn't necessarily mean that the homemaker's a bully and gets his or her own way everytime there's a conflict. I think it's more likely to mean that the non-homemaker recognizes that they don't have as much practical expertise in those arenas, or maybe just has no solid preference for issues that barely touch their lives (the color and arrangement of the kitchen, say), and so they often side with the homemaker, who they assume has a better perspective on home issues.

But that's the home. Do women rule in relationships? Going just on the question, it sounds like you're asking if, in a relationship between a man and woman, the woman is at an automatic advantage in any disagreement. The relationship, then, would not be an equal 50/50, but at least a 51/49, and possibly a more dramatic split. And gosh, I hope women don't have an unequal advantage, there. Sure, men are stereotypically taught chivalrous behavior--to look out for women and treat them well. But women are just as stereotypically taught to make men feel comfortable and loved and important. Each partner, ideally, would look out for the interests of the other. Which is probably where the "marriage isn't for me" article is coming in. Instead of trying to be the most powerful in the relationship, each person should be trying to build up their spouse, to understand where they're coming from, and make them happy. So yes, I agree with that. In a good marriage, it shouldn't be one ruler and one subject, but two servants, who serve each other. But servants, not slaves. Each should also be allowed to have their own needs and wants, and be able to spend some time NOT in the service of the other person.

TLDR: Ideally, the homemaker rules in the home, and there's an equal partnership, based on love and service and wisdom, in the relationship.

(And of course, like most ideals, that's easier said than done, so most relationships will be a little bit unequal. But I don't think that inequality comes down too strongly on gender lines, either. It's just speculation on my part, but I feel like I've met strong-willed men in about the same proportion of as strong-willed women. Match a stronger-willed someone with a weaker-willed someone, and you'll probably have a bit of a relationship inequality.)
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Portia »

UffishThought wrote:I think the issue of this thread is more complicated than the title makes it, too. It assumes there can be a simple yes or no, but that's obviously untrue. And "rule" is such a loaded word that means different things to different people in different contexts. So we've got a question that presents a false dichotomy in nebulous terminology: no wonder feelings run high!
Boom. This is awesome.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Dragon Lady »

Uffish wins.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by vorpal blade »

Portia wrote: There's lots of research about how women don't speak up if there are men in the room. Well, put one in charge, and it's revealing to see the tone change.
This is why men need to be very careful to obtain the valuable counsel and advice from the women in the meeting. Lots of research also shows that in situations of equality, such as this Board Board and marriage, women tend to dominate and the men go quiet. So, equality of situation is not going to solve the problem all by itself, because men and women are not the same.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by bobtheenchantedone »

I've seen and heard of several situations where women are in the majority and still don't speak up; men still tend to dominate discussions even when they're outnumbered.

Also, for heaven's sake equality and sameness are not the same thing. Your insistence that they are is part of why this discussion is so muddy. In fact, men and women should be more equal because they are different; for example, in corporate studies teams that have one or more women on them perform better than teams that have no women (or no men, we assume, but there generally aren't enough women in a given corporation to form an all-women team). Diversity is the key.
The Epistler was quite honestly knocked on her ethereal behind by the sheer logic of this.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Dragon Lady »

I think that's sad. In general, especially with people I'm less acquainted with, I'm quiet. But in an authority position, I speak my mind. I don't care how many men or women are in the room. But then again, I'm one of those weird people who like meetings. (Oddly, I'm skipping out on a meeting tonight where I was asked to speak up and say things. But that's only because Yellow also has a meeting tonight and as mine is monthly and his is not, I thought I'd give him priority. And didn't want to get a babysitter.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Violet »

vorpal blade wrote:Lots of research also shows that in situations of equality, such as this Board Board and marriage, women tend to dominate and the men go quiet.
Really, where?

Because everything I've read says even when women speak only 1/3 of the time compared to men, they're perceived as being the dominant force in the conversation, even though they're not speaking as much as the men.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by bobtheenchantedone »

Violet wrote:
vorpal blade wrote:Lots of research also shows that in situations of equality, such as this Board Board and marriage, women tend to dominate and the men go quiet.
Really, where?

Because everything I've read says even when women speak only 1/3 of the time compared to men, they're perceived as being the dominant force in the conversation, even though they're not speaking as much as the men.
Fact. Also:
Men asking for a raise are go-getters, while women asking for a raise are bitches (direct quote from a male business owner)
A male professor can talk all he wants about family, but a female professor doing so at all is perceived as "always" talking about family (source: female BYU professor)
In UVU's English department, despite a female majority, men are still favored and some policies don't apply to them (source: female UVU English professor)
Even when talking about gender issues and specifically requesting female input, female students tend to keep quiet (source: female BYU professor)
(can you tell I just interviewed some professors about gender issues in universities?)
The Epistler was quite honestly knocked on her ethereal behind by the sheer logic of this.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Whistler »

Violet wrote:
vorpal blade wrote:Lots of research also shows that in situations of equality, such as this Board Board and marriage, women tend to dominate and the men go quiet.
Really, where?

Because everything I've read says even when women speak only 1/3 of the time compared to men, they're perceived as being the dominant force in the conversation, even though they're not speaking as much as the men.
I don't know about the Boardboad, but I assume Vorpal is referencing his earlier sources about women being aggressively persuasive about home and family topics in marriage.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by vorpal blade »

Dragon Lady wrote:I realize people think that. I just... don't. I honestly don't think the priesthood makes anyone better or worse. I realize that most people don't agree with me. But it'd sure be a lot easier if more people did. ;)
I’d like to say something about the question; does the priesthood make anyone better? First, I am not saying that women are better than men, or men are better than women. We are all loved by our Father in Heaven, and we all have potential to become like Christ. Men and women have different strengths and serve God in different ways, and each sex is essential to the eternal plan. One is not greater than the other, and each has need of the other.

I have to answer that the priesthood definitely makes men better husbands and fathers. Of course it doesn’t do this in a stepwise function, as if the moment you receive the priesthood you are suddenly a more worthy person. It is like baptism. Both baptism and the priesthood are covenants we make through ordinances. Both have associated with them blessings we receive if we live worthy of them.

A baptized person becomes a better person if he lives up to his baptismal covenants. When you are baptized you have the promise of the remission of your sins if you repent of them. It doesn’t do any good if you don’t repent. With baptism and the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost a person has the right to the companionship of the Holy Ghost. This can help a person to be a better person if he lives worthy and listens to the promptings of that Spirit. When we make covenants or promises we feel a greater urgency in living our lives as we know we should.

Similarly the priesthood is given with an oath and a covenant. God promises with a promise he cannot break to lift us to exaltation with a fullness of His glory, to live as He lives, and to be sealed in a family forever with the promise of eternal increase. God promises that if we keep our covenants exercising faith then He will give us the help and power we need to be successful.

Faith in the oath and covenant of the priesthood helps a man to develop feelings of charity. When we accept the priesthood we promise to care for others. Priesthood service causes a change in our hearts, helping us to be more refined and pure and to love more deeply. Women can experience the same growth without the priesthood through serving others.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... d?lang=eng
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Dragon Lady »

I realize that I should have worded that better. Let's see if I can explain my thoughts here.

It is my understanding that many women feel like men and women are not equal in the Church because men hold the priesthood and women do not. Men are placed above the women. That is what I meant when I said, "better". I do not feel that men are placed above me because they hold the priesthood. Not that they're better than me, per se. It was just the best word I came up with for the priesthood being the unequalizer in this conversation.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by vorpal blade »

Looks like I misunderstood you, Dragon Lady. My apologies.

I think we agree that all else being equal a man with the priesthood is not a better person than a woman. I think we also agree that when a man takes his priesthood covenants seriously and faithfully keeps them he becomes a better person.

My question is, are men and women equally noble and great in the Church today? Certainly some men are more noble and great then other men, and the same is true of women. Are men and women in equal numbers living celestial laws and at the same level of progress toward the Celestial Kingdom? I think the answer is that we have parity of righteousness between the sexes in the Church, if not more faithful women than men. So, I wonder, why hasn’t the priesthood made men better than women on the whole? What is causing the women to keep pace with or surpass the men when the men have the priesthood and the women don’t?
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Dragon Lady »

Vorpal, how does holding the priesthood make you a better person? Specifically compared to living the gospel in general. How does it make you better than you'd be actively studying the scriptures, going to church, serving, being charitable, paying a full tithe, etc?
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Whistler »

I would argue that nothing can make us "better" people. Our individual worth and divine souls remain of great worth no matter our actions. We can do more righteous things though, and our religion teaches us that keeping the commandments and loving others will help us be happier in the long run.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by vorpal blade »

Dragon Lady. I tried to answer this question in my Wednesday post. Check the link I gave as well.

Whistler. The whole point of earth life is to give us experiences that help us to become better people. The purpose of the Church is "for the perfecting of the saints." (Ephesians 4:12). See also D&C 124:143. We are taught that we have great potential, to become even as our Father in Heaven, but none of us are there yet. Our actions and the grace of God definitely does make a difference in the sanctification of our souls. This is such a fundamental teaching I must not be understanding what you are saying.
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Re: Do women rule in the home and in relationships? #74665

Post by Dragon Lady »

vorpal blade wrote:Faith in the oath and covenant of the priesthood helps a man to develop feelings of charity. When we accept the priesthood we promise to care for others. Priesthood service causes a change in our hearts, helping us to be more refined and pure and to love more deeply. Women can experience the same growth without the priesthood through serving others.
But you say yourself that women can experience the same growth without the priesthood. Can men not gain that same growth through serving others, even without the priesthood? You make a covenant with the priesthood, sure, and that covenant encourages you to grow and become better. But are you saying that you couldn't become better, gain more charity, etc., without the priesthood? Only women can gain that without the priesthood?
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