Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Cognoscente wrote:I am thoroughly against government intervention in almost any facet of the economy, but you are lying to yourself if you truly believe the free market has figured this one out so far.

One of the difficulties free market people have is explaining that the problem today is not that the free market has failed. We don’t have anything like a free market at the present time. The health care industry is already heavily regulated. The problem we currently have is way too much government regulation. But people just don’t want to give up their government regulations, which they hope insures fairness and security.

vorpal blade wrote: I try to express, as inoffensively as I can, my deeply held beliefs and feelings. It saddens me that you find that offensive.

I found it offensive too actually.

vorpal blade wrote:A group of people have broken in to your house...

Only this house has a huge long line of people that have to go through a series of tests and pay a lot of money to even be able to be considered getting in, with a lot coming from the house next door. The house next door is very overcrowded, the oldest kids hog x-box and all the good food leaving year old top ramen for their youngest siblings to eat, if they're lucky. So instead of wait in line they climb over the fence and raid the trash just trying to get by, and thus enter the house that is being broken into and try to remain hidden...

vorpal blade wrote: They have no moral right to even be in your house.

Moral right? Do they have a right to starve and wait foolishly to try and get in legally? Some hundred thousand people are allowed to become legal citizens, or be allowed in to become legal citizens a year. We have 12 million immigrants in the US at least. Just trying to get to them would take over a hundred years doing things how we do them now. So what is their right? To starve, to be homeless, and have a meager life, or cross the border to make a better living for yourself and family?

And lets go back to that house analogy. What do the majority of those legal residents of our house do? They make fun of those who entered, they kick them our, they treat them poorly and wish they weren't there. Now what was it again that the Savior taught? Clothe the naked and feed the hungry, unless they are illegal immigrants?

You want them to assimilate and become part of our culture? That would go more smoothly if we accepted them first, if we set up English classes and trade classes, making them a more viable part of society, maybe even help them to go back and improve their home country. Heck, we could even do an type of indentured servant thing, you work for someone and they provide you with food, housing, English class and some spending money on the side. Something to help them help themselves so they don't have to skirt around the law like cockroaches when the light is turned on.

wrote:In the same way when we invite people into our country and help them to become American citizens, we have some control over teaching them the values, practices, and government that has helped us to become great.

What values precisely? Or do you just mean learning about the Constitution?


And I too think we have too much government regulation. And/or Government control.

Sam,

I have no desire to argue with you, or offend you. I’ll just respond briefly with a few of my thoughts. I suspect we just aren’t going to agree on this.

In my opinion, the United States government has no moral obligation to admit anyone into the country. We may choose to do so when it is in our best interests. It doesn’t matter how bad conditions are in other countries. Government has an obligation to its citizens to keep out uninvited guests.

I believe that the United States government has no moral obligation to feed, clothe, or provide personal goods for anyone, except for services rendered, inside this country or outside. Provide for the general welfare means foster a climate where you can succeed on your own efforts.

I believe it is morally wrong for people to use the government to force others to contribute to what used to be called charity, whether it is welfare for the poor and needy, help for other nations, or medical assistance for the medically indigent.

As individuals we have a moral responsibility to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick and elderly, look after the widows and orphans. But it has to be done of our own free will, or else it is wrong. Government needs to stay out of it.

So if a person goes to a hospital and is hacking up blood, but can't provide proof of residence because werf is an illegal immigrant, the hospital can deny service to werf?

So, vorpal, if you witness an illegal immigrant, age 11, getting a horrendous third degree burn and they know no doctors but they know you, what would you suggest to them? You aren't a doctor, and you would like to be charitable, but your abilities are limited because you aren't a doctor. In your world, you can't call 911 or drive them to the hospital because they are an illegal immigrant. Let me tell you from experience (someone that has gotten second to third degree burns when she was 11,) I would never wish upon anyone that type of writhing pain, nor the horrible experience of watching someone in that pain without having the knowledge or power to do anything about it. Thank goodness I had access to an emergency room. I always want to live in a country that takes in the suffering, regardless of their stature, background, income, and whatever else. They are children of God, too.

vorpal blade wrote:

Imogen wrote: great idea. i'll get right on the incredibly offensive advice right away...

I try to express, as inoffensively as I can, my deeply held beliefs and feelings. It saddens me that you find that offensive.

It helps to have the ability to put yourself in someone else's position and imagine how your words will come across to them, given their background and life experience. Not everyone is naturally good at doing this, but maybe we can help you work on it.

I'm not sure if I will have the time or capacity to express what I feel, but I would be remiss if I did not make the attempt. I have not the authority to say much, but if we all could agree that this topic is one that has eluded those who we have chosen to give it consideration, no one of us here is likely to have their thoughts be the simple solution to such a complex problem.

Nanti-SARRMM and Imogen, you have both expressed taking offense at some of vorpal blade's words. While I usually consider myself a fair hand at figuring out what elements of an argument are under contention, I must admit that I fail to see which lines you are interpreting as offensive. Could one or both of you kindly elucidate for me, that I may understand you better?

vorpal blade, please be remembering that the majority of the contributors here on the message board not only are younger, but the years we have lived have presumably been markedly different than the corresponding ones of your life. Many things that you take for granted have yet to be decided in the minds of those who read your words. Or at least their conclusions came under significantly different stimuli. Your ideas and reasonings are valid, the biggest trouble is one of communication once again, I think. While we need to suspend our own bias to approach your point of view, please realize what it is that is required of us to do so, and consider shifting your plane to meet us halfway. Understanding can be had.

Quiet Lamb and Nanti-SARRMM, I wonder if you might not be misrepresenting the world vorpal blade has been describing. To point out the merits of charity is well done, and the number of doctors that do their work pro bono or at great loss in order to aid those who cannot pay is an encouraging thing. For those who do not, the laws of marketing painfully apply: nothing without a cost. If, in the situation you describe the option for a hospital is there, but you, as the good Samaritan have to foot the entire bill, knowing full well that those charging you may not be sparing in their expenses, perhaps justifies the search for something different.

Darth Fedora and Nanti-SARRMM, consider the analogy that vorpal blade has made in the light of the illegal nature of the exchange. Precedent has been set that those who break laws lose rights. Much of your sentiment could also be used by those who we condemn and incarcerate as criminals, despite the Lockean realization that the right to freedom is God-given. You are right that immigrants, legal and non, are treated inexcusably poorly here in the United States. Sadly we do not have the corner on this, other countries treat immigrants as second-rate, or even sub human. But in a country founded by immigrants, you would be right to hope that we would do better. That we did little or nothing to deserve the bounty we enjoy should make us freer with sharing it, but does not condone its usurpation.

Finally vorpal blade, also consider the option that the information you have been given concerning taxes and medical expenses may well have been using illegal immigrants as a straw man to draw ire away from other practices that increase costs. As I understand it, much of the inflated pricing in the medical industry comes from the interaction between medical facilities and insurance companies. Consider that a large insurance company can afford to pay top dollar to a few individuals who can focus entirely on haggling down costs, saving the cooperation billions. What is your natural reaction to approaching a transaction that you know will have a large portion haggled by the best? You increase your asking price, starting the 'bidding' higher in order to ensure a more favorable outcome overall. The axe falls on those who do not have the insurance to do the haggling for them, and they often get caught paying exorbitant fees, as Cognoscente has attested. Nowhere in that scenario would illegal immigrants factor in, nor would they ever be much more of a factor than the wastefully poor (those without desire to change their status out of laziness or apathy) legal residents of the nation. I'd gladly accept the idea that emergency wards are operating at a loss, but perhaps those who have attributed a simplistic cause to that loss have other agendas in mind when doing so.

If I have misrepresented or misinterpreted any of you or your thoughts, please let me know. Clearing up such misunderstandings often can assist in the overall progression of the discussion.

Tao - 1
Everyone Else - 0

(really, Tao -1, Everyone Else - 1 for benefiting from Tao's objective and insightful response.)

Tao-

The words: "What should the illegal immigrants have done? I think the answer is easy, follow our Church leaders. What do our Church leaders tell us to do?
1. Pay tithing
2. Attend Church meetings
3. Do your duty in the Church and serve the Lord
4. Be honest in your dealings with your fellow men
5. Get as much education as you can. If necessary apply for a loan from the Perpetual Education Fund we are all contributing to. And for those in the U.S., if you are in a position to do so, and wish to help others out, give a more generous offering.
6. Work hard for your employer.
7. Obey the laws of the land
8. Stay in your own land. If inspired to move elsewhere, get in line and do all that is legally required of you.

My suggestion for non-members is to join the Church!"

offend me. all of them. first of all, the suggestion that all non-members should join your church is extremely offensive, whether meant in jest or not (and vorpal has not said it was meant in jest.) also, not everyone has access to education, no matter how hard working they are. education doesn't magically make your life better. i have a bachelor's and am still dirt poor. i'm lucky my company offers insurance and that i'm single and have no kids. one of my coworkers is spending 200 out of her 700 dollar paycheck (each check, not each month) for insurance for her and her kids because putting all of them on her husband's insurance costs even more than that. it's ridiculous.

also, as has been pointed out, immigration laws in the US SUCK LIKE NO OTHER! my stepmother legally entered the country and it took almost a decade for her to get citizenship. A DECADE. not because she was lazy,or didn't follow the rules. there's so much red-tape and so many hoops that it took that long for her papers to get looked at, processed, and for her to get to take the test. and you can't move forward until the government says you can. until then it's just a waiting game. i can understand entering the country illegally because trying to get in legally is almost impossible unless you marry someone, and even then you don't always get citizenship.

I agree almost completely with Imogen.

Imogen,

Most of us have some idea of what would make the world a better place to live in, and how people could improve themselves. Perhaps you believe that we all need to be more tolerant and understanding of others. If we treated one another with more kindness, respect, forgiving, and compassion then we would all be happier. If we were less bigoted, hateful, selfish, mean-spirited, and hurtfully proud then we could get along better. When we waste so much energy in hating we cripple ourselves and our community. Imagine if cooperation took the place of suppression of others in an effort to get ahead.

I believe that you share these values with me. I'm sure that you would be happy to share these values with others, and if you could better their lives by sharing you would do it in a heartbeat.

I, and most of the others in this discussion group, feel overwhelmed at times with the great blessings we have been given. We do not know why we have been chosen to become aware of God's great plan of happiness. We feel unworthy of this honor, but we are quick to share it would as many others as we can. We know it will make them happier, lead more fulfilling and rewarding lives, and bless them in more ways than they thought possible. We have seen many times the wonderful changes that have come into the lives of those who will accept the gospel and join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We do not claim to have all truth. There is much good and truth in all the other churches, and in many of the philosophies that men have independently found. We abhor the idea of forcing others to believe as we do, and we highly respect anyone who tries hard to live according to the highest principles they are aware of.

We know that we are better people as we try to live the principles we know and understand. We are imperfect, and often fail. We do not offer to share our beliefs with any pride or arrogance, but humbly acknowledging that God has blessed our lives, and commanded that we freely share what we know with all others. We firmly believe that we and the rest of the world will be much better off as they come to know the truths we have been given.

We believe that our religion will help anyone to be more tolerant, understanding, kinder, more respectful of others, more forgiving, more compassionate, less bigoted and hateful, less selfish and mean-spirited, and less hurtful. Please forgive us as we fall short of our ideals.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Tao wrote: Nanti-SARRMM and Imogen, you have both expressed taking offense at some of vorpal blade's words. While I usually consider myself a fair hand at figuring out what elements of an argument are under contention, I must admit that I fail to see which lines you are interpreting as offensive. Could one or both of you kindly elucidate for me, that I may understand you better?

Quiet Lamb and Nanti-SARRMM, I wonder if you might not be misrepresenting the world vorpal blade has been describing. To point out the merits of charity is well done, and the number of doctors that do their work pro bono or at great loss in order to aid those who cannot pay is an encouraging thing. For those who do not, the laws of marketing painfully apply: nothing without a cost. If, in the situation you describe the option for a hospital is there, but you, as the good Samaritan have to foot the entire bill, knowing full well that those charging you may not be sparing in their expenses, perhaps justifies the search for something different.

Darth Fedora and Nanti-SARRMM, consider the analogy that vorpal blade has made in the light of the illegal nature of the exchange. Precedent has been set that those who break laws lose rights. Much of your sentiment could also be used by those who we condemn and incarcerate as criminals...

For the first point, to me it just seemed to me that Vorpal Blade said tough luck to those who wished to improve their financial situation, that to VB, he would advise them to join the church and see what luck throws their way instead seeking better ground to improve one's situation. I see it as offensive because by him saying join the church, he appears dismissive of the why, of their needs and wants and suggests that joining the Church will magically fix their situation.

Yeah, someone does have to foot the bill, that is true. But I'd rather have the costs be up a little than leaving them without any care whatsoever. Maybe a laxity in immigrant employment laws and an immigrant tax of sorts would help? But that's just an idea.

As yes that sentiment is expressed by criminals, that is true. But the difference is that immigrants cross a political boundary and then work for their wages. Criminals on the other take what is not theirs. Yes it is a fine line, but most criminals take what they have not earned, whereas immigrants seek to earn through work. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's a simplified view of things. Obviously the lines are very crossed and other illegalities occur such as identity falsification and what not, but that and others are problems inherent with the system itself and not of the actual illegal border crossing.

So I hope that helped you understand a bit more Tao.

vorpal blade wrote:Imogen,

Most of us have some idea of what would make the world a better place to live in, and how people could improve themselves. Perhaps you believe that we all need to be more tolerant and understanding of others. If we treated one another with more kindness, respect, forgiving, and compassion then we would all be happier. If we were less bigoted, hateful, selfish, mean-spirited, and hurtfully proud then we could get along better. When we waste so much energy in hating we cripple ourselves and our community. Imagine if cooperation took the place of suppression of others in an effort to get ahead.

I believe that you share these values with me. I'm sure that you would be happy to share these values with others, and if you could better their lives by sharing you would do it in a heartbeat.

I, and most of the others in this discussion group, feel overwhelmed at times with the great blessings we have been given. We do not know why we have been chosen to become aware of God's great plan of happiness. We feel unworthy of this honor, but we are quick to share it would as many others as we can. We know it will make them happier, lead more fulfilling and rewarding lives, and bless them in more ways than they thought possible. We have seen many times the wonderful changes that have come into the lives of those who will accept the gospel and join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We do not claim to have all truth. There is much good and truth in all the other churches, and in many of the philosophies that men have independently found. We abhor the idea of forcing others to believe as we do, and we highly respect anyone who tries hard to live according to the highest principles they are aware of.

We know that we are better people as we try to live the principles we know and understand. We are imperfect, and often fail. We do not offer to share our beliefs with any pride or arrogance, but humbly acknowledging that God has blessed our lives, and commanded that we freely share what we know with all others. We firmly believe that we and the rest of the world will be much better off as they come to know the truths we have been given.

We believe that our religion will help anyone to be more tolerant, understanding, kinder, more respectful of others, more forgiving, more compassionate, less bigoted and hateful, less selfish and mean-spirited, and less hurtful. Please forgive us as we fall short of our ideals.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

but i believe all those things about the catholic church, so you can see why the idea that joining your church magically makes someone's life better or more blessed would be offensive. i would never suggest to anyone here they should join my church just because it makes my life better and more blessed. plenty of people just don't see it that way.


and i agree with Sam. all the immigrants i've ever known have come here and worked hard to make money and make a better life. it's american citizens who i think take advantage of the system. parents teach their children to get pregnant ASAP so they can get medicare and food stamps, and never have to work. it's unfair to those of us, legal or not, who work hard. that's the true drain on the system in my opinion, not illegal immigrants.

What? I've never heard of any parent recommending pregnancy as a solution. I'm sure there's one or two out there, but certainly not the majority of welfare recipients. I believe that more often than not, welfare recipients honestly need help and aren't just freeloading.

Tao,

Once again we are indebted to your wisdom and gift to see both sides of the issue. I thank you for your insight and clarity of thought.

My original point was to disagree with the way habiba characterized the usage of emergency room medical facilities by illegal immigrants as a place of last resort, a place they go to because they have no other options. In my experience, and the experience of many others, many illegal immigrants use the emergency rooms as a sort of free doctor's office. They go for treatment there because it is free to them, and they go in for all kinds of minor aliments that did not need a doctor, or could have been handled better by a routine doctor's appointment. I have not provided any specific evidence for this belief of mine. I wasn't trying to prove my point, only to offer a different perspective. And, I could be wrong.

I don't think it is an unreasonable belief. When my insurance company pays 100% of my expenses in the emergency room, and pays only a percentage for a regular visit, there is a temptation for me to use the emergency room as a free doctor's office. I think it is abusing the system, however.

I never meant to imply that a major factor in our problems with crowded and expensive emergency rooms was due to illegal immigrants. There are many more problems than that; people who don't pay, insurance companies that pay only what they think is justifiable, state or federal guarantees of payment that are an insult to the doctors and hospitals. A good friend of mine, a pediatrician, told me of being called to the emergency room in the middle of the night to save the life of a baby. He worked for many hours to bring that baby back from the edge of death. The patient was on some kind of government program for health care, I don't remember which kind. In the end he was given just $4.00 for his time and life saving skills. He said that of course he would have done it without pay as an act of charity, and felt good about it, but to be paid $4.00 by the government, as though that was all his time was worth, was more than just a slap in the face. Some doctors just won't do it.

As Cognoscente has said, the cost can be unreasonably high, for those who can pay or will pay for it. I think we can blame government regulations, lawyers and the high cost of malpractice insurance (which is really high in emergency rooms, as I understand it), the medical profession that limits (with government collusion) its numbers to artificially increase demand for its services, numerous costs for unnecessary tests and procedures to avoid later litigation, insurance practices, and many other things. The use of emergency rooms by illegal immigrants is a problem, but lets not blow it out of proportion.

I'm not wise enough or knowledgeable enough to know the answers. All I can do is share my principles. I believe that forcing people to do charitable acts is Satan's plan, which we rejected in the council in heaven, millennia go. It isn't good for our character development. It also foster a dependence and feeling of entitlement in those that receive it. They feel that just because they live in this country the government, meaning taxpayers, must provide them with a certain amount of health care and basic living subsistence. Those that receive it aren't grateful for it, because they believe it is their right to receive even more of it. Politicians cater to them, and make ever greater promises of government handouts in exchange for their votes. They are disincentivized to work for their own support, or to better their lot in life. They are told that it is not their fault they are poor, and enmity grows between the haves and the have-nots.

I am fully aware that there are truly needy people who didn't ask for or deserve their poverty or sickness. It is not my place to say who is worthy of my charity, and who is not. But when assistance is given by a person voluntarily, and it is known to the person who receives the charity that it was at the personal sacrifice of someone who did it out of love, a different feeling is fostered in the one who receives it. He is grateful and humble. He feels a need to get out of the situation he is in. He doesn't take more than is needful. Church welfare differs greatly from government welfare.

The kind of world I would like to live in has no sickness and injuries. And if there were health problems then miracles performed by priesthood blessings would instantly cure them. However, since I am privileged to remain a few more years on earth I have some practical interim philosophies.

In my mind justice says that no one should demand a handout as his right. Illegal immigrants should take into consideration, before they ever step over that imaginary political boundary, that they have no right to free medical care if they should get sick or injured. They should not expect that hospitals will give them thousands of dollars in care just because they want to have their babies on American soil. In my mind justice says that being hungry or poor is not reason enough to avoid the consequences of illegal activity. None of us should think that it is our fundamental right, guaranteed by the Constitution, to be fed, clothed, and cared for at the expense of our neighbors.

On the other hand there is mercy. We need to be merciful and feed the hungry, cloth the naked, and care for the sick. However, we should not be compelled to participate in this. Those that use the government to force others to contribute to their favorite charities are mighty generous with other people's money, in my opinion.

The way this discussion is often phrased is in terms of a false dichotomy. Either the people starve, suffer from horrible accidents, are left out in the streets to die, or else we raise taxes to force everyone to pay for charitable acts to save them. There is another way, where we contribute to charities which operate hospitals, provide meals to the hungry, and provide clothing to the needy. I believe that is the way it used to be done. It is a mark of our time that some people are too proud to accept charity, but think nothing of going on government welfare.

The more the government taxes us to support government welfare, the less money we have to give on our own to charities. And the more we leave it to the government, the more impersonal it becomes for us and for the needy. It has got to be more efficient if done through private means than through a government bureaucracy. But not just more efficient; more humane, more caring, more uplifting, and comes to an end more quickly.

Yes, I too want to live in a country where the poor and needy are routinely cared for. But charity, when done through the police powers of the state, where a right is assumed to exist, is the wrong way to go about it. It is demoralizing to the needy.

As a parent we feel those pangs of compassion when our children are in need. However, being merciful unwisely can ruin our children and make them spoiled. Sometimes tough love is required.

I would catch and send back all the illegal immigrants in our country. They butted in line, so to speak, and thought to disrespect our laws and customs. In general we lack the will to act, and each political party seems to see some immediate personal gain in having the illegals in our country, to the long term detriment to our country. Not that illegal immigrants are bad people, or worse than others. It is just that doing things the wrong way leads to many problems down the road.

I used to be for unlimited immigration. At this point in my life I would restrict immigrants to the extent that we can handle the influx. We need to make sure they learn English, are willing to learn and live by our laws, know our customs and values, and are willing to put the interests of our country ahead of the countries from which they came.

Well, I've tried to explain myself, trying to imagine how you think and feel. I hope this was helpful.

Please don't hate me.

Vorpal

Imogen wrote:but i believe all those things about the catholic church, so you can see why the idea that joining your church magically makes someone's life better or more blessed would be offensive. i would never suggest to anyone here they should join my church just because it makes my life better and more blessed. plenty of people just don't see it that way.

I'm always delighted when someone invites me to join his or her church because they believe in it and wish to share the blessings. What a compliment! As I understand it the Catholic Church teaches that my baptism is not valid, and without a valid baptism I am going to hell. If I chose to be offended, it would be by Catholics who are unconcerned with whether I go to hell or not (or actually wish me to go to hell). I would hope that every Protestant would also feel that life would be better if everyone joined his or her particular church.

I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to not take offense.

Imogen wrote: and i agree with Sam. all the immigrants i've ever known have come here and worked hard to make money and make a better life. it's american citizens who i think take advantage of the system. parents teach their children to get pregnant ASAP so they can get medicare and food stamps, and never have to work. it's unfair to those of us, legal or not, who work hard. that's the true drain on the system in my opinion, not illegal immigrants.

I agree with you.

Nanti-SARRMM wrote: For the first point, to me it just seemed to me that Vorpal Blade said tough luck to those who wished to improve their financial situation, that to VB, he would advise them to join the church and see what luck throws their way instead seeking better ground to improve one's situation. I see it as offensive because by him saying join the church, he appears dismissive of the why, of their needs and wants and suggests that joining the Church will magically fix their situation.

"Tough luck" would be unfeeling and callused. If you knew me you wouldn't think that. I've seen many people join the Church and do much better financially. A lot of our problems in life are not due to what luck comes our way, but our attitudes and values. The Lord blesses us as we pay tithing, so the windows of heaven are opened to us. Again, if you knew me you wouldn't think that I believe that joining the Church magically does anything. We don't believe in magic. But you should know that when a person joins the Church and opens his heart to the Spirit, and tries to do what the Church teaches him, that he will become a better person. There are also programs within the Church to help people learn the skills needed for better employment. Bishops and Quorum presidents work with members to help them get better jobs. There is networking in the Church. There are free training seminars. Assistance can be given. I am quite sensitive to their needs, wants, and reasons for need.

Quiet Lamb wrote:What? I've never heard of any parent recommending pregnancy as a solution. I'm sure there's one or two out there, but certainly not the majority of welfare recipients. I believe that more often than not, welfare recipients honestly need help and aren't just freeloading.

come down to my neck of the woods and you'll see what i mean. i hear it from a lot of the girls i teach. they are raised on welfare and food stamps, their mothers tell them to get pregnant so they can get food stamps of their own. and they never get married OR they lie to the government about their marital status. welfare is very much abused down here. people really make it a lifestyle. and now there's no restriction on what you can buy with your lonestar card (that's our debit food stamp system). i go to the grocery store and have to spend super carefully, and it makes me angry when i see some dude with two carts full of steak, beer, candy, toys, and other frivolous items when i can barely afford my rent. my coworker had to be convinced to apply for medicare and wic to help with her prenatal expenses because she hates how most of her relatives take advantage of the system. but this is a woman who works hard, pays her own way through school without loans, and has put money into the system for years. and i feel bad for my coworker who spends a fortune to insure herself and her children because she and her husband make too much money for help with healthcare for their kids. if they got divorced, they would get it. i'm blessed to be totally single and childless because i can (barely) afford to care for myself. this is a system that's totally messed up. our system is WAY broken and needs to be fixed somehow.

vorpal blade wrote:

Imogen wrote:but i believe all those things about the catholic church, so you can see why the idea that joining your church magically makes someone's life better or more blessed would be offensive. i would never suggest to anyone here they should join my church just because it makes my life better and more blessed. plenty of people just don't see it that way.

I'm always delighted when someone invites me to join his or her church because they believe in it and wish to share the blessings. What a compliment! As I understand it the Catholic Church teaches that my baptism is not valid, and without a valid baptism I am going to hell. If I chose to be offended, it would be by Catholics who are unconcerned with whether I go to hell or not (or actually wish me to go to hell). I would hope that every Protestant would also feel that life would be better if everyone joined his or her particular church.

I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to not take offense.

i'm not unconcerned whether you go to hell, but your religion works for you, so why is it my place to say mine would work better? because catholicism really isn't for everyone. and if you were baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit you won't go to hell, just purgatory. eventually you'll get to heaven. if not, then yes, we believe you'll go to hell, but most christian religions baptize that way ANYWAY so it's almost a moot point.