59155 - Sauron on mosques and memorials

[Cognoscente]

...if I ever took offense.

Hey Marduk... your feeble attempts at culinary prowess would be embarrassing if anyone thought you weren't being ironic, and you make Chef Boyardee look like Wolfgang Puck!

...How'd I do?

[Marduk]

Wow. Next you're going to tell me that you engaged in intercourse with my spouse or significant other.

[Craig Jessop]

Wow. Next you're going to tell me that you engaged in intercourse with my spouse or significant other.

I think we all know there are multiple meanings to that word... some of which are perfectly appropriate. Therefore, this shouldn't be a problem unless you're the jealous, controlling type. Then you'd have some bigger problems.

[Marduk]

Quoting something. 'noscent will get what I mean.

[Cognoscente]

Now that's psychiatry!

[thebigcheese]

Did you guys hear about the "Burn a Qur'an Day" thing going on in Florida? Doesn't anybody know about respect and decency anymore?

[Cognoscente]

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in ... ontroversy

Ugh. This idiot preacher is destroying good will in Afghanistan, putting American soldiers' lives in danger, and being an all-around tool just to get on the news and cause a stir. He deserves, to quote the magnificent Barry Goldwater, a good swift kick in the ass.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I skimmed a blog post on the ten reasons why you should burn the Koran. They were dumb reasons. Let's see if I can find it...

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/ten-reaso ... rn-a-koran

[Marduk]

I skimmed a blog post on the ten reasons why you should burn the Koran. They were dumb reasons. Let's see if I can find it...

http://www.doveworld.org/blog/ten-reaso ... rn-a-koran

My favorite: "It has many similarities to Nazism, Communism and Fascism."

What conservative extremist argument would be complete without "It's what Hitler and Stalin did!"

See? We have to discriminate against Muslims, because Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini didn't.

[TheBlackSheep]

I swear, the next person to say, "I love them enough to [do this completely horrific thing]," gets a punch in the face.

[vorpal blade]

At the risk of being punched in the face, I’m going to join the majority in condemning the proposed Dove World Outreach Center project to burn copies of the Koran, and ask that people like me, with what some regard as a horrific point of view, be treated with love and respect, and ask that you try to understand our motives. Please don’t think that our treatment of the Dove Church is illogical (or hypocritical) treatment we are giving Christians, at least until you have heard us out.

As a Mormon, and having been inculcated in religious persecution, I am acutely aware of how my adamant opposition to the free expression of another faith may be viewed. I expect to be treated as a religious bigot knowing that Pastor Terry Jones probably also views Mormonism as a church of the devil. But sometimes freedom of religion needs to be tempered with other values, and respect for other religions.

I have problems with this quote:

Feelings about the Koran are raw and real. Many people, including families who lost loved ones on 9/11, find the prospect of burning copies of the Koran upsetting. I’ve heard this reaction in my family, too. But feelings aren’t reasons. You can’t tell somebody not to burn their copy of the Koran just because the idea upsets you. You have to figure out why you’re upset. What’s the basis of your discomfort? Why should others respect it? For that matter, why should you?

I understand this feeling, but it just doesn’t seem to do justice to those who oppose the burning of the Koran.

Pastor Jones believes this is a time when we must hold no place for what he considers the evil of Islam. He believes that we must stand up for the (or perhaps, his) viewpoints and beliefs that are being tread underfoot. However, you can’t speak up against the pastor without being accused of being a terrorist sympathizer, ignorant of the feelings of Christians, and making way for Muslims to rule over us. Sadly, what some think should be plain and obvious is obfuscated for political gain, and turned into a political issue where there ought to be agreement.

The supporters of Pastor Jones ask why there are objections to their project of burning the Koran. There is a question because we find this Fundamentalist Christian religion distasteful. They will tell us that it is both immoral and unconstitutional to tell a group that they cannot peaceably assemble on their church grounds and burn their copies of the Koran because we find such evangelical Christian denominations so frightening.

To those who support the pastor and preach tolerance we must ask, how much do we tolerate? Should you be able to burn copies of the Book of Mormon, if (this is a hypothetical) your sister was converted to Mormonism? Almost everyone finds this immediately distasteful, yet the pastor’s supporters ask us to tolerate a similar situation because it is a peaceful religious belief, and not an ethnicity?

Some may support the pastor by claiming that we have a duty not to sit idly by when individuals are oppressed and persecuted. I won’t quote trite expressions at you, but I find it odd that those who accuse the conservative agenda of constantly oppressing others are not so quick to stand up when anyone on the religious right is threatened.

I appreciate the right of private property, but I still think it is wrong for this church to burn copies of the Koran, even if they own the copies. Sometimes private property rights come in second to other values that a community holds. It is true that another book could be, in physical form, identical to the Koran, and not be the Koran, and many people would no longer be opposed to the burning of it. Some would oppose the burning of any books, on the grounds that books could be becoming an endangered species. But the point is that we have laws regarding our use of private property, as it is not some kind of absolute right.

Others support the Dove World Outreach Center on the grounds of First amendment rights. I believe this is the basis of the support given by the American Civil Liberties Union. Despite the weight of the ACLU, I do not think that freedom of speech rights are absolute, either. Too much emphasis on rights, and not enough on responsibility, is unhealthy for a country. But neither should we be insensitive to the rights and feelings and sensitivities of the despised minority that support the Pastor. It is difficult to find a wise middle ground.

I do not oppose the burning of the Koran on the basis that burning books is something only the Nazis would do. Isn’t it wonderful to live in a land where we can legally own both bibles and copies of the Koran?

[Marduk]

Vorpal, I fully support the pastor's right to burn copies of the Q'uran. Were he to ask me my opinion on it, I'd tell him he was a fool and a bigot, but that he was well within his rights. Were someone to ask me my opinion on building a mosque a few blocks away from ground zero, I'd say it is a wonderful idea. Not only do they have every right to do it, but ostensibly it could go a long way in aiding understanding and acceptance of Islam as a religion.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Vorpal, there's no need to be so oblique. Please feel free to say what you mean directly and clearly.

[Imogen]

I just don't like the mentality of "this is bad so i'll burn something to show how much i hate it!" it's so juvenile. why not host a conference instead? should i go burn some bibles because there have been (and still are) evil people calling themselves christians? this guy may be within his rights, but people should have the judgment to know when their speech goes from logical discourse to inflammatory and hateful. any chance for understanding gets lost in the anger and hype,

[Craig Jessop]

I just don't like the mentality of "this is bad so i'll burn something to show how much i hate it!" it's so juvenile. why not host a conference instead? should i go burn some bibles because there have been (and still are) evil people calling themselves christians? this guy may be within his rights, but people should have the judgment to know when their speech goes from logical discourse to inflammatory and hateful. any chance for understanding gets lost in the anger and hype,

I agree. The guy is within his rights. In Europe they call stuff like this "hate speech," and it's illegal, but here in the US we have no such distinctions. I absolutely do not believe the church should burn the Quran, nor do I believe they should build a mosque near ground zero. So sue me. But I don't believe that there is anything that anybody can do to stop it. Even though I think that both parties are deliberately inflammatory. Having served my mission in New York and met plenty of Muslims and seen plenty of mosques, I know for a fact that there are other, equally acceptable alternative locations.

And that pastor is a complete idiot. Would I call him un-American? Yes. He knows the severe consequences for our troops and the severe repurcussions that the U.S. will have to face in abroad, yet he is still going forward with it. That is not patriotic at all, sorry.

[ahem.]

Church's official statement on the Koran burning:

“A key tenet of our faith is to accord everyone the freedom to worship as they choose. It is regrettable that anyone would regard the burning of any scriptural text as a legitimate form of protest or disagreement.”

[vorpal blade]

If the Muslim group does not back off from its insistence in building near Ground Zero, rather than a mere five blocks further away, hundreds of millions of Americans will be left with the undying conviction that it is not just the extremists who are hell-bent in running roughshod over everyone else. Even the peaceful Muslims will be seen as narrow-minded, ideology driven zealots determined to make the “Satanic” America into an Islamic nation, whether we want that or not. They will be seen as taking advantage of rights that Islamic nations do not grant to their own people.

At the same time, hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide will look at this victory as encouragement to support further barbaric attacks on innocent Christians and Americans, expecting additional “victory” mosques to be built to commemorate the “heroic acts” of terrorists who facilitate the spread of Islam. The world will become further polarized, ugly, and dangerous.

At this point even the Reverend Terry Jones looks more flexible, reasonable, peace-loving, and concerned about the consequences of his actions than the New York Iman Faisal Abdul Raul. The Iman has to know that. Therefore I am hopeful that tomorrow (September 11) he will announce his intention, for the sake of world peace and goodwill, to build his Muslim cultural center a few blocks further away from his originally intended location. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that he discussed this with Muslim leaders in his extended tour last month. The Iman may even get a Nobel Peace prize out of it, as well as a very handsome profit from the sale of the property. I doubt Pastor Terry Jones will fare as well.

[wired]

If the Muslim group does not back off from its insistence in building near Ground Zero, rather than a mere five blocks further away, hundreds of millions of Americans will be left with the undying conviction that it is not just the extremists who are hell-bent in running roughshod over everyone else. Even the peaceful Muslims will be seen as narrow-minded, ideology driven zealots determined to make the “Satanic” America into an Islamic nation, whether we want that or not. They will be seen as taking advantage of rights that Islamic nations do not grant to their own people.

I take issue with the number "hundreds of millions" and the argument as a whole. There's something like 350 million individuals in the US. (Last I heard was 300 million, so I am doing rough adjustment.) That would mean more than 28% of Americans would have to know the situation and then feel the way you described. I doubt you'd get that number, especially considering the number of children in the US and total number of Americans who just don't care about the news. Avoid hyperbole in the form of numbers unless you can back it up.

Now, let's even assume you are right. Let's say, generously, that 200 million people are informed about this situation. Then, we'll say that there's a 4:1 ratio of against the mosque to for the mosque. That gives you 160 million people for, 40 million against. Again, I think this is probably a very kind estimate toward you. You are then assuming that those 160 million people will be as outraged about that as you have described. (I find that absolutely asinine as well, but we'll give it to you.) That does NOTHING to show that those people are absolutely wrong in their perception of the people building the Ground Zero mosque.

We weren't right when we decided to butcher Native Americans off valuable property in the south; we weren't right when we provided institutionalized racism in the form of separate but equal; we weren't right when we interned Japanese Americans during World War II; and if we continue to oppose Muslims broadly instead of radical Muslims narrowly, history will convict us of another mistake.

The Iman may even get a Nobel Peace prize out of it, as well as a very handsome profit from the sale of the property. I doubt Pastor Terry Jones will fare as well.

This is bordering on ridiculous. Really, it is. Let me draw out the distinction for you: Imam would be backing out of an action that he would not only be legally justified in doing, but logically and rationally ought to be able to do without any opposition. He would then be parting with a parcel of land that is worth millions upon millions of dollars. Terry Jones has backed out of an action that he is legally justified in doing, but is logically and rationally abhorrent to any person who is focusing on the contents of the message. The amount of money he would lose would be marginal, and, in reality, he has probably profited already from the media exposure.

[Marduk]

If the Muslim group does not back off from its insistence in building near Ground Zero, rather than a mere five blocks further away, ...

Ok, this is something I genuinely don't understand. Currently, the plan is to build it about two blocks away, in an old Burlington Coat Factory building, if my understanding is correct. Five blocks further would put it seven blocks away. Is seven really that much more of a difference than two?

[Craig Jessop]

Five blocks further would put it seven blocks away. Is seven really that much more of a difference than two?

YES. In New York, five blocks means the difference between neighborhoods. It would be like moving from Provo to Orem -- not that big of a deal or distance, but actually a pretty big difference.