Santa

[Katya]

Lastly, and perhaps more anecdotally, we have a (mistaken) idea that children need to be transitioned from gift receivers to gift givers.

This is somewhat tangential to the original topic, but I also like the idea of getting kids involved in doing some kind of Sub for Santa or Toys for Tots, just to introduce the idea to them of thinking about someone else in the world who doesn't have as much as they do.

[krebscout]

Eh, I think I have to go with Terry Pratchett on this one:

Death: HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO *BE* HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
Death: YES. AS PRACTICE, YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
Susan: So we can believe the big ones?
Death: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
Susan: They're not the same at all.
Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET, YOU TRY TO ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME, SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE, BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?
Death: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

I joke about it frequently, but my mother taught me how to lie, and, more importantly, when. As with any kind of violence, there will be those who prefer to do away with it and live their lives as far from ever needing to look at it as possible. I feel that this is a good path, though one I am not currently prepared for. Until then, I'll continue to lie as 'safely' as possible, and likely would be willing to teach my children the same, to hopefully encourage the desire to question anything they wish and at the same time cultivate a willingness to believe in some of life's bigger lies: altruism, peace on earth, a government that works, things of that nature.

This makes no sense to me. I see no link between believing in a false (if benevolent) entity and having hope in - struggling for - an ideal. Of all the reasons to continue the Santa tradition, this is the last thing that would come to my mind.

[Marduk]

I think relating those two is very harmful, Tao, and I don't see how as a Christian you can believe it. Altruism and peace on earth are at the heart of this Gospel, and are as true (if not moreso) than my sitting in this chair or the nature of the air I breathe. It is precisely this sort of attitude that makes a santa figure necessary, and it is also why we must rid ourselves of it, so as not to obscure the actual nature of these things.

[krebscout]

Marduk - did you see that I had addressed a question specifically at you?

[Marduk]

Oh I'm sorry, let me go back and take a look, I must have missed it.

Ok, looking at your question, I would say it IS possible to simply treat santa lightly, as we would say, a fairy tale. That's how I would treat it, in fact. The same way one might talk about Jack and the beanstalk, for example. Santa is too promulgated by this society to ignore it entirely.

As long as santa is not given center stage or made to seem real, I don't find him particularly harmful. If either of those two qualifications are failed, then it IS a big problem.

[Tao]

I think relating those two is very harmful, Tao, and I don't see how as a Christian you can believe it. Altruism and peace on earth are at the heart of this Gospel, and are as true (if not moreso) than my sitting in this chair or the nature of the air I breathe. It is precisely this sort of attitude that makes a santa figure necessary, and it is also why we must rid ourselves of it, so as not to obscure the actual nature of these things.

Striving for altruism and peace on earth are at the heart of the gospel, I can agree with that. But if you founded your faith on their current existence or the wish that they can occur w/o major divine intervention, you'd better live in a bubble or with your eyes closed if you wish to maintain your faith.

I don't believe in peace on earth can occur outside of the millennium, and the realization that it [the desire therefor] is a lie allows me two generic responses: I can be devastated at the realization, or I can accept it for what it is and do my darndest to find/make/be at peace with my little segment of the world. I'd say it isn't too far fetched to say that the willingness to believe in Santa is a lesser corollary to the foundation of hope at large, when hope is something created from within or given from on high, not something you'll ever find out in the world.

[Marduk]

But you acknowledge that one exists and the other doesn't.

Or at least, you acknowledge an accurate belief in the latter (hope, faith, etc.) to be preferable to an inaccurate one.

Hence, the corollary falls apart.

[Tao]

Acknowledge that peace on earth exists? Quite the contrary. Belief in such a myth is a good parallel to Santa; believe it while you can, and when you can no longer do so, live as if you did and don't ruin it for others.

[Humble Master]

Believing in Santa makes kids happy. More happiness in the world is good in my opinion.

Sure some of the happiness is derived from the materialistic aspect of it, but the pure joy Lil' Master had on her face this year when she believed that Santa had come was magical in a way that finding presents from Mom and Dad would not have been.

And I fully support Dragon Lady's argument about imagination.

[Marduk]

Hrmmm, I disagree Tao. Peace on earth, while a great ideal and something to be strived for, does not exist and we should not pretend as though it does. In so doing, it makes striving for it not worthwhile; why work for something that doesn't exist? The same to a lesser extent is true with the fat man; if there's some jolly fat man who will bring us gifts then why should we bother trying to understand and fulfill the wants and desires of others?

[Tao]

mmmm, I'm not sure I know where you're coming from, as your latest statement runs contrary to what I had understood you to be saying earlier.

why work for something that doesn't exist?

Also, while the non-existence of something can make striving for it 'not worthwhile', that is only one of the two options I mentioned before: the other is the acceptance that while it doesn't exist, and may never, I can still strive for it with all by being. I think that a child-like wonder at magic and the many 'impossible' things of the world help foster this second stance. (Plus: why strive for something that already exists? If we don't strive for what doesn't exist, and have no need to strive for that which already does, what do we strive for?)

We have revelation that confirms that peace has been removed from the earth, and await the promise of it's return with the second coming, does this mean we don't work our tails off trying to make peace with our little corner of the world, even if in the big picture it is a lie?

[Katya]

Tao, I'm not understanding your logic, either. The best I can make of it is that you're saying you have to believe in an ideal before you can work toward that ideal. For starters, things like "peace" and "justice" and "mercy" are abstract ideas. I don't need to believe that they are physical realities or that it's possible for them to be fully realized in order to work towards them in small ways. (And what does this all have to do with Santa Claus, again?)

[Marduk]

I misspoke. I meant to say "why work for something that already exists?" My apologies.

[vorpal blade]

Whenever this question comes up I'm reminded of a cartoon. Two little boys are sitting on the steps of a house.

Boy 1: Do you believe in the devil?

Boy 2: No, I don't.

Boy 1: Why not?

Boy 2: Well, I figure it is just like Santa Claus. It is really just your dad.


Which...doesn't exactly reflect my views, but I find it funny.

I think the way we handled it in our family was to treat it kind of like a game. In games we have fun pretending stuff. When the time comes when the child asks you seriously if Santa is real, then you tell him or her "It is just a fun game we play. But lets not spoil it for the other children in the family, or in school, by telling them that Santa is not real. We'll let them find out for themselves when the time is right."

Of course, if the child was way past the age when he should know, and was making a fool of himself, we would probably find a way to break it to him gently.

[thebigcheese]

Of course, if the child was way past the age when he should know, and was making a fool of himself, we would probably find a way to break it to him gently.

What age is that, do you think? I can't remember when I stopped believing in Santa...

[Dragon Lady]

I remember being about 6 or 7ish and my brother telling me that Santa wasn't real, and knowing that he was right, but not wanting to admit it yet, so I called him a liar and (because I was apparently a hypocrite) told him that the Christmas before I found one of Santa's mittens in the stove, so . Of course he didn't believe me and he told my mom, so I felt compelled to lie to her, too. She never contradicted me, but I could tell she didn't believe me. (Well, duh.)

Other than that, I don't remember when I stopped believing. I just know it was apparently before 6 or 7.

[vorpal blade]

Well, certainly before Middle School he should be told. The age you should tell your child would depend on your child. You need to watch for signs that he should be told. Usually they find out from friends in school. If he doesn't know by the time he is to be baptized I would think about it a lot.

[krebscout]

DL and Humble Master both talked about Santa fostering imagination in children, and I think this is interesting. I've never correlated the two. And I realize from some of my posts here ("Only one Christmas present a year! Maybe, possibly, perhaps no Santa!") that I might be coming across as a hard-nosed Puritan.

This is so not the case. And I'm not worried about my kids' budding imaginations in the slightest, Santa or not. What is it about Santa that you find valuable in that sense? Is it the pretending that you value, or the believing in something that's bigger than life? Do you feel you'd be robbing your kids of future whimsy by deleting Santa from your tradition, and is he irreplaceable?

[Dragon Lady]

Ok, not on the topic of Santa, but on the topic of mythical beings that parents teach their children to believe in… the Tooth Fairy. I just read this blog and LOVE IT. Which is funny, considering my conflicting view on Santa. But this is so amazing, it had to be shared. And I really want to do it with my kids. Except, what do you do when the neighbor kids don't get registered?

[Dead Cat]

Ok, not on the topic of Santa, but on the topic of mythical beings that parents teach their children to believe in… the Tooth Fairy. I just read this blog and LOVE IT. Which is funny, considering my conflicting view on Santa. But this is so amazing, it had to be shared. And I really want to do it with my kids. Except, what do you do when the neighbor kids don't get registered?

Was there supposed to be a link in there?