Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Imogen wrote:

thebigcheese wrote:It creates problems when each person wants to continue living according to their own culture. It affects everything from what foods you eat on a daily basis, how you decorate the house, what traditions you will continue, how to celebrate holidays, what language your kids will speak, how you interact with in-laws, importance of frugality, etc.

I mean, many those things are already an issue in other marriages. You have to compromise in all marriages. But couples coming from the same culture will have much more common ground to work with than multicultural couples. When you start mixing cultures, you are far more likely to have major differences of opinion.

but all those things you listed can happen in a marriage with people from the same country.

...I assume you read the second paragraph that you quoted, so I'm confused about what you are arguing. She admits those issues can arise in marriages, be they multicultural or otherwise. But I think she is saying those issues may pop up more frequently between international couples in general than intra-national ones. Even though it may or may not be true for specific couples.


Also, I think most of us can agree that country-of-origin does not automatically imply a certain cultural tilt. Many cultural identities can flourish within a single country, and certain countries may have a lot in common culturally with different countries.

Which is precisely why categorically disallowing for the marriage of people from different countries is so befuddling.

I'm just saying that you're probably making things harder on yourself. I don't think it's impossible, just harder in most cases. Like the guy who married my native Japanese roommate, even though he didn't seem to like anything about Japanese culture. He didn't seem to like the food she cooked, or the language, or pretty much anything about Japan. I worry about them sometimes.

Laser Jock wrote:melbabi, what kinds of difficulties do you mean? (If you're okay talking about them here.) I think your stance makes sense, but I don't have a clear idea of what kinds of difficulties, exactly, being from different cultures can lead to.

I don't mind at all. And just to make sure I was accurately portraying my parents I talked to my mom about this and asked her what her thoughts were. Just to clarify though, I am not saying that all of these problems automatically occur in all marriages where the individuals are from two different countries, or that all of these problems are limited to marriages where they are from different countries, I just know that this is my parents and my experience as well.

My mom said that the biggest difficulty for her is the distance. We are not able to see my dad's side of the family as often as we see my mom's side. My family of origin is from Minnesota but my mom's family lives in Oregon. So we don't see them very often either but we see them a lot more often than we do my dad's family since they are in a different country that is a lot more expensive to get to and is a third world country (and when I was there, it was kinda scary). My mom said that she thinks that we missed out in that aspect because not only do we only see them once every ten years (ish) but we also don't speak the same language as them so it is difficult to communicate with them.

My mom also said that it is difficult for her in that she can't communicate with my dad's family either. Oftentimes my dad's family says rude and offensive things about my immediate family to my dad and my mom feels like she can't defend herself because she doesn't know what they're saying. (Don't worry though, my dad defends us!) For me, I can relate to that. I only speak one language. If I were to marry someone whose family didn't speak English, I would not be able to communicate with them.

My mom also said that another difficulty that they have experiences that she thinks is partly (but not completely) due to different cultures is their communication. My dad's first language is not English and sometimes, even though he learned English 25 years ago, he has a hard time articulating what he is trying to say in English.

Another difficulty my mom mentioned is my dad's idea of the roles of males and females. My dad very much has the 'machisimo' idea because he grew up with that in his culture. He has slighly improved in this area (for example, sometimes he will take his dishes to the sink and not expect us to but he does not always do that), but he does still have certain expectations of males and females and can get frustrated when his expectations are not met.

The last difficulty I will mention is the racism against my dad. My dad is Hispanic and ever since 9/11 he does not want us around him in airports because he always gets stopped and searched. Not only that, but his work a few years ago cited his English writing skills as a reason for letting him go. (Which is ridiculous because any paperwork he does he has my mom proofread it to make sure it sounds okay and makes sense.) He also has a strong accent (so I'm told, I don't hear it) and because of that people are quick to presume he has low intelligence. I really don't understand that but it does happen. And just to clarify, my dad is pretty smart ( he's a mechanical engineer).

Anyway, those are just a few of the things that I and my mom have noticed. And just to clarify again... I'm not saying that these difficulties are exclusive to marriages with people from different countries nor am I saying that they happen in every single marriage where they come from two different countries. I just know that they happened in my parents marriage and while they have been married 27 years, they still experience cultural difficulties and it is still something they have to work on a lot! But they make it work and I'm glad for that. However, I do not think that it is for me. That being said, I would not be completely opposed to marrying someone from a different country, I would be extremely cautious in my decision though and I would definitely have a lot of discussions about potential cultural difficulties before making that decision.

melbabi wrote:My mom said that the biggest difficulty for her is the distance. We are not able to see my dad's side of the family as often as we see my mom's side.

Ah, I forgot about that one completely. A good friend of mine married a guy from Denmark, and they basically don't get to see his parents. Ever. It's just too expensive. I'm not sure if she's even met them...

First, I'm going to agree with everyone who says Craig should ask for an activity/price change and go on the date. It is a few hours of your life where you can learn about another person, it never has to become anything more than that.

Second, as someone who is going to marry someone from another country in a couple months, I've got to say this is fascinating! Part of the reason I dated this guy for so long was precisely because people kept telling me that intercultural marriages are harder. Only the people I know who actually have married foreigners didn't give me this advice. My Finnish aunt and her husband and their kids never said this to me, not because they never had any problems, but because they were able to make it work for them.

Thanks for the insights, melbabi. Some of those are ones I hadn't though of (e.g., not being able to see family, or racism by proximity).

i typed a whole thing and lost it!

i think the racism thing is a weak argument. i have dealt with racism my whole life. people are racist. it happens. they are racist whether i'm with my iranian father or my black american mother. being away from either parent doesn't improve that. my last name gets me pulled over at airports all the time, and i usually travel alone.

i wonder about accents. my dad really doesn't have an accent, and has also been speaking english for over 25 years. are some people more disposed to accents?

and in terms of his family talking bad about yours, that's just bad manners, not a cultural thing. my best friend has the same problem with her in-laws, and she also can't defend herself. the only difference is that they just talk behind her back, not in front of her.

and the most machismo guys i've ever met were all born and raised in america. including my former stepbrothers who thought a woman should not eat until after a man. boy did they hate me.

i just see all the problems you've talked about in my friend's marriages and relationships. really, we are ALL raised differently and have cultural differences, even within the same community. if i married the guy i'm seeing now, we would have HUGE things to discuss because he parents are preachers, raised him baptist, and are still married. my parents are self-employed/retired, raised me no religion in particular, and divorced. his family is close in distance, mine isn't. his family is very conservative and white. mine is very not conservative and BLACK (or iranian, depending on the side).

Accents tend to have more to do with how you learned to speak another language than the person speaking.

Unit of Energy wrote:Accents tend to have more to do with how you learned to speak another language than the person speaking.

And some people are better at picking up new sounds and some are worse.

I'd also like to point out that there is a lot of good in a marriage with two different cultures. I speak English and Spanish, which would have been much harder for me to do in a different household. It also allows the partners to choose the best of both cultures; it gives the family two rich heritages to draw upon in deciding their own traditions and customs. If you guys want any concrete examples of these, I've got plenty.

Imogen wrote:i typed a whole thing and lost it!

i think the racism thing is a weak argument. i have dealt with racism my whole life. people are racist. it happens. they are racist whether i'm with my iranian father or my black american mother. being away from either parent doesn't improve that. my last name gets me pulled over at airports all the time, and i usually travel alone.

i wonder about accents. my dad really doesn't have an accent, and has also been speaking english for over 25 years. are some people more disposed to accents?

and in terms of his family talking bad about yours, that's just bad manners, not a cultural thing. my best friend has the same problem with her in-laws, and she also can't defend herself. the only difference is that they just talk behind her back, not in front of her.

and the most machismo guys i've ever met were all born and raised in america. including my former stepbrothers who thought a woman should not eat until after a man. boy did they hate me.

i just see all the problems you've talked about in my friend's marriages and relationships. really, we are ALL raised differently and have cultural differences, even within the same community. if i married the guy i'm seeing now, we would have HUGE things to discuss because he parents are preachers, raised him baptist, and are still married. my parents are self-employed/retired, raised me no religion in particular, and divorced. his family is close in distance, mine isn't. his family is very conservative and white. mine is very not conservative and BLACK (or iranian, depending on the side).

First of all, I never said that any of those were 'arguments,' I just said they were difficulties that my parents have gone through. And I did emphasize (strongly I thought but perhaps not strongly enough) that these difficulties happened in my parents' marriage and that does not mean that every marriage with people from different countries/cultures are like this, nor does it mean it doesn't happen in marriages with people from the same culture. I know that there any many other factors involved, for example, my dad's family is rich, my mom's isn't. My dad's family is Catholic and my mom's family is LDS. My dad's parents 'disciplined' him with a belt, my mom's parents yelled. My dad's parents are married and my mom's parents divorced. My dad's family never talks about emotions while my mom's family is very sensitive. I could go on and on. However, regardless of whether these difficulties are due to them being from different countries or not, it is still something that they struggle with and it is something that my mom thinks occurs to a greater extent in their marriage than it does in others. Imogen, I don't mean to come across as rude so I hope I didn't but I interpreted your post as, 'your mom is wrong because this is what happened to me' and I got a little defensive of my mom. Probably cuz I kinda like her.

and i probably get defensive because i hear "two people from different countries shouldn't get married" as "you shouldn't exist!" (since i wouldn't if my parents hadn't gotten married).

i don't think your mom is wrong, but i think she's giving too much weight to him being from another country as opposed to other factors. like, your dad's family talking about your family in another language is just...rude...

Yeah, I understand. I wouldn't exist either so I'm glad that my parents are making it work. And my dad's family has always been like that. I know that doesn't make it right but it's how they are. So my mom's limited experience with them has been with knowing they think that she 'stole' him away from them and that it's her fault that he didn't move back to be around them. Which is why I'm not allowed to be friends with them on facebook because they will see a picture and assume the worst. So sadly, it is 'normal' for that to happen. I might add that to the list of difficulties though, that they blame my mom for my dad not going back to live in his country he grew up in. (The reason why they sent him to the US was because there was a war going on in his country and his friends were dying so my grandparents sent him here until the war was over and he could return. But he met my mom and ended up staying so they resent her.)

I'd just like to add that while I sympathize with your situation Mel, I have not seen similar problems in my experience as the product of an inter-cultural marriage.

Is it possible that some cultures are more likely to have difficulties intermarrying than others? Like, I assume a Jew and an Arab would have more difficulties than a Mexican and an American.

I haven't seen problems myself in many inter-cultural marriages, but you have to admit the dynamic is different. There are just so many cultural norms that have to be reconciled like how loud should music be played, what sort of meals do we eat on Sunday, how important is kids schooling, etc. It isn't to say that these things don't have to be agreed upon in a single culture marriage, but it's a lot easier to find a medium and common ground when there aren't centuries of conditioning to go behind each spouse's preference.

This whole conversation has reminded me of a great blog post on the perils of assuming that people from the same culture have all of the same opinions:

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/07 ... s-anymore/

Here is my advice: Go and have a good time.

I think it is a good policy to date the kind of person you want to marry. I have no problem with your decision to marry a person who is as much like you as possible. Elder Hartman Rector used to say, after addressing the idea that opposites attract, "Marry a person as much like you as possible. There will be enough difference remaining to drive you up a wall." Very true.

But, when you have been set up with a blind date you haven't abandoned your principle to date within your own culture. You were sort of trapped into this, and it wasn't your desire. Be gracious about it. Don't hurt the feelings of the roommate, his girlfriend, or especially the blind date. This girl is also risking rejection, cultural bias, and discouragement if you don't treat her right. Be your most charming and sweet self. At the end of the date, if you had a good time, tell her so, and thank her for going out with you.

I remember once telling a friend of my sister that I was interested in dating the roommate of the friend. Before I knew it, I had a date set up by that friend. Only it turned out to be the wrong roommate. The poor girl had been so excited about it that she had gone out and bought a new dress to wear. She had spent hours getting ready for the date, and as I recall it was just going to a movie or something casual like that. I tried to be nice, but I was really disappointed. I wish now that I had given it more of a chance to work out. I could have liked the girl I dated if I had let myself.

As far as the money goes I would make it clear that I couldn't afford the date. If they continued to blow it off I would then turn to my roommate at the time it came to pay for your expenses, and with an embarrassed look on my face, say, "But you invited me to this affair. Aren't you going to pay for it?" Or something like that. Just a thought.