Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

oh, I thought of another job like cooking. Many professional flutists are male, but most amateurs are female.

Whistler wrote:oh, I thought of another job like cooking. Many professional flutists are male, but most amateurs are female.

I wonder if that holds true for any other instruments. Violinists, maybe? Or pianists?

Katya wrote:

Whistler wrote:oh, I thought of another job like cooking. Many professional flutists are male, but most amateurs are female.

I wonder if that holds true for any other instruments. Violinists, maybe? Or pianists?

I don't have statistics, but anecdotally that seems true of violinists, too.

Oh, if we're going anecdotally....

I know of one female concert pianist. The rest are male. (I'm also not on the up'n'up when it comes to knowing professional pianists, as it's not the kind of music I care to listen to, so ... take that as you will.) I'm meeting a lot more amateur good pianists that are male, but it sure seems like when I was growing up only girls played piano.

Is this perhaps a reflection of the idea that men should have jobs and women should have interests?

C is for wrote:I know of one female concert pianist. The rest are male. (I'm also not on the up'n'up when it comes to knowing professional pianists, as it's not the kind of music I care to listen to, so ... take that as you will.) I'm meeting a lot more amateur good pianists that are male, but it sure seems like when I was growing up only girls played piano.

You know, it's interesting that you bring that up, C4. I've known a ton of female piano students...but I can't think of a single one who went on to play professionally. They all became wives and mothers, double-majored, or pursued some other type of employment.

(Depending on your definition of professionally, I play professionally. But I totally am not a concert pianist, nor is it my sole career.)

Wow, there are a lot of classical pianists! I was going to go through the list to give the male:female ratio, but I'll let someone else do that

C4, did you study piano at BYU recently? If so, I bet you knew my cousins.

C is for wrote:Oh, if we're going anecdotally....

I know of one female concert pianist. The rest are male. (I'm also not on the up'n'up when it comes to knowing professional pianists, as it's not the kind of music I care to listen to, so ... take that as you will.) I'm meeting a lot more amateur good pianists that are male, but it sure seems like when I was growing up only girls played piano.

Is this perhaps a reflection of the idea that men should have jobs and women should have interests?

I have a theory about this, actually. It seems that people who choose to invest time/energy/money in things that are stereotypically the domain of the opposite gender tend to do well in them. We've mentioned men in predominantly female domains like piano or cooking, but also (again anecdotally), all but one of the top four students in my advanced physics class in high school were female. My theory is that it's basically a matter of self-selection. There are so many little girls running who around play piano, that it's easy for another little girl to think, "Hey, I think I'd like to play piano, too!" This other little girl might or might not actually have a whole lot of interest or talent, but does it because it's the thing to do. But boys, on the other hand, are only likely to start piano lessons if they really have a passion for piano music. So a greater percentage of boys are likely to stick with it and become professionals.

I noticed a similar trend in my English courses in college. The courses that all English majors were required to take (British and American lit, etc) were predominantly female. But the more difficult courses that were recommended for students planning to go to graduate school in English were about fifty/fifty. I also knew a lot of ditzy female English majors, but no ditzy male English majors.

Anyway, I don't think my theory fully accounts for this trend we're noticing, but I think it is a contributing factor.

Do we have any females around here who have professions or serious hobbies in male-dominated spheres who'd like to comment on this? I know Hypatia is a female engineer ... Anyone else?

Emiliana wrote: Do we have any females around here who have professions or serious hobbies in male-dominated spheres who'd like to comment on this? I know Hypatia is a female engineer ... Anyone else?

This is an interesting topic to me, because my field of work (social work) is generally female-dominated, which is actually why I chose to go into research, the male-dominated part of the field. So I work really hard to be good at something that doesn't come naturally to me (advanced statistics) because I think that its important for more women to be involved in the research side of social services.

Emiliana wrote:

Katya wrote:

Whistler wrote:oh, I thought of another job like cooking. Many professional flutists are male, but most amateurs are female.

I wonder if that holds true for any other instruments. Violinists, maybe? Or pianists?

I don't have statistics, but anecdotally that seems true of violinists, too.

I remember reading some article from the 40's that talked about the instruments it was and was not appropriate for women to play. Piano, violin, and flute were all fine, but instruments like the bassoon were not appropriate, on the basis that it wasn't possible to look ladylike while playing one.

Emiliana wrote:

C is for wrote:Oh, if we're going anecdotally....

I know of one female concert pianist. The rest are male. (I'm also not on the up'n'up when it comes to knowing professional pianists, as it's not the kind of music I care to listen to, so ... take that as you will.) I'm meeting a lot more amateur good pianists that are male, but it sure seems like when I was growing up only girls played piano.

Is this perhaps a reflection of the idea that men should have jobs and women should have interests?

I have a theory about this, actually. It seems that people who choose to invest time/energy/money in things that are stereotypically the domain of the opposite gender tend to do well in them. We've mentioned men in predominantly female domains like piano or cooking, but also (again anecdotally), all but one of the top four students in my advanced physics class in high school were female. My theory is that it's basically a matter of self-selection. There are so many little girls running who around play piano, that it's easy for another little girl to think, "Hey, I think I'd like to play piano, too!" This other little girl might or might not actually have a whole lot of interest or talent, but does it because it's the thing to do. But boys, on the other hand, are only likely to start piano lessons if they really have a passion for piano music. So a greater percentage of boys are likely to stick with it and become professionals.

I like this theory. It's probably not the only factor at play, but I bet it's partially responsible for the effect.

Emiliana wrote:Do we have any females around here who have professions or serious hobbies in male-dominated spheres who'd like to comment on this? I know Hypatia is a female engineer ... Anyone else?

I minored in physics and was probably in the top 5% of most of my classes.

UnluckyStuntman wrote: So I work really hard to be good at something that doesn't come naturally to me (advanced statistics) because I think that its important for more women to be involved in the research side of social services.

If I may ask an innocent question, why do you think it is important for more women to be involved in the research side of social services?

Emiliana wrote: Do we have any females around here who have professions or serious hobbies in male-dominated spheres who'd like to comment on this? I know Hypatia is a female engineer ... Anyone else?

I'm studying civil engineering right now, partly because I like this kind of stuff, but I became interested because my dad is one and he usually likes his job because there's almost always something new to do--unless you count monster projects that take years and years and years *cough*Port of Anchorage*cough*. Hey, was that all one sentence?

vorpal blade wrote:

UnluckyStuntman wrote: So I work really hard to be good at something that doesn't come naturally to me (advanced statistics) because I think that its important for more women to be involved in the research side of social services.

If I may ask an innocent question, why do you think it is important for more women to be involved in the research side of social services?

I think simply because the experience of women, generally speaking, will lend unique and important information on how the world works - this will effect how research is approached, what kinds of research questions are asked, etc.

As an example and speaking strictly about psychotherapy models (i.e. types of therapy), most models were created by men for men - the exception of course being feminist therapy, which addresses the concern that women have different life experiences (due to social structure of patriarchal societies, etc.) which need to be considered in a therapeutic setting.

In my mind, this can be applied to research - women have an important perspective which will affect what is studied and how it is studied. By getting more women involved, I guess I'm hoping that research in the social sciences/services will be more equally balanced, and thus, more comprehensive.

There is something to be said about parenting here. My dad isn't super masculine, and my mom isn't super feminine. I'm not trying to say that they're weird or anything, they just aren't obsessed about it. My dad doesn't watch every game on ESPN, he doesn't own an enormous collection of power tools, he doesn't have the biggest grill you've ever seen, nor does he drive the beefiest car (it's a Civic, for crying out loud). He used to play golf and go fishing, but he gave that up when he had kids. My mom doesn't buy the prettiest dresses, she only wears makeup occasionally, and she doesn't really have any domestic hobbies (sewing, crafts, etc) beyond the skills needed for basic repairs.

Anyway, I've started to realize that this has had a really profound effect on me. I've never wanted to be a girly girl, and I absolutely HATE when guys think they have to be macho. I thought my parents were great because they weren't obsessed with stupid things to make themselves appear more masculine or feminine. They were very balanced people. I mean, it's one thing to enjoy your favorite team's weekly football game -- it's quite another to be glued to ESPN every single night. It's one thing to enjoy building things -- it's quite another to own the beefiest version of every power tool imaginable. It's one thing to look pretty -- it's quite another to spend two hours getting ready every morning with your $300 makeup.

When kids see their parents doing these things, I think they are more inclined to follow suit. (But not always -- there is also something to be said about individual personalities.)

thebigcheese wrote:There is something to be said about parenting here. My dad isn't super masculine, and my mom isn't super feminine.

I grew up in a similar situation. There were some interests and activities that fell along gender lines—my dad works as an electrician and knows how to fix cars, my mom plays the piano, sews a bit and reads a lot—but my dad is completely uninterested in sports and my mom greatest interest is academia.

More than anything, they raised me and my brother to be free to pursue whatever interested us. So when I decided to minor in physics and my brother wanted to learn to play the cello, they were nothing but supportive.

However, growing up with that mentality does mean that I tend to be really surprised when I encounter someone with a very different perspective.

Yes, my parents were similar. Certain traits I have would hence be considered more feminine; I'm very in touch with my emotions, I cry more openly and often than just about any guy you will meet, I'm disinterested in watching most sports (soccer and occasionally basketball being the only exceptions) although I do play basketball fairly frequently and wrestled all throughout junior high and high school, and I cook as a hobby.

What I'm looking for, however, is an example of something one feels as a gender role being fostered by society and proving beneficial. We are deluged with examples of them being either benign or caustic, but none where they are helpful.

Marduk wrote:What I'm looking for, however, is an example of something one feels as a gender role being fostered by society and proving beneficial.

Honestly, I'm not really sure which gender roles even exist anymore in our society (beyond LDS culture, of course). These days, the lines are blurred so much that the very concept is rapidly disappearing, so it's hard to come up with anything without being overly controversial. I think we've probably already addressed the obvious physical differences -- the reasons why men are naturally more suited to warfare, certain occupations, etc.

Marduk wrote:What I'm looking for, however, is an example of something one feels as a gender role being fostered by society and proving beneficial. We are deluged with examples of them being either benign or caustic, but none where they are helpful.

I think that's going to be very hard to find, in part because one of the ways we define something as a gender role is by having enough people find it detrimental that they challenge it. Before that time, it's likely to be viewed not as a gender role but as an immutable Law of the Universe. Which makes it difficult to distinguish between beneficial gender roles and Laws of the Universe.