#3!!

[mic0]

But we can't make statistics on things people won't admit to anyone.

And there's the kicker! Especially here at BYU where doing one thing wrong can get you landed in a very sticky situation, almost no one is going to offer up what they may be doing on the side.

[thebigcheese]

Some people seem to hang out in the circles that get away with stuff, but I personally haven't seen much at all. My roommates hardly dated, but if they did, they were generally super paranoid about breaking any chastity rules. I can think of exactly one girl who was probably having sex with her boyfriend -- but she also lived kind of a bizarre lifestyle (who transfers schools SIX TIMES?). I knew no drinkers, but I did see an eviction notice for that in my apartment complex once. I knew no druggies. I knew one lesbian, but she chose to leave school about as soon as she revealed that information. So...I don't know who you've been hanging out with, but my vision of BYU is very different than yours.

[Dragon Lady]

I… wrote a response to this. I did! And it's gone. And I'm too lazy to write it again. [sigh] But it basically said that the only reason this was public was because he was on a highly publicized basketball team and people would have asked questions if he just disappeared from the team. So BYU had to put out a statement. And that statement only said that he had been found to have violated the Honor Code. Any academic scholar would have also been suspended/expelled from BYU and kicked off of any … chess team they were on. But who publicizes getting kicked off a chess team?

[krebscout]

Anyone else have roommates who essentially had live-in boyfriends? (I did.) Anyone else met more gay guys than bearded ones? (I did. They all come out on blogs, it seems.) Anyone think Mormons have essentially been sex fiends since the days of polygamy. (I do! O_O)

Nope, nope, and asterisk. I'm sure I had an acquaintance or two that I never knew about, but all of my roommates and everyone in my social circle was honest, honor-code abiding, and more prone to slack on shaving than anything else...and didn't date a lot. I think I met only one gay person. Though there were probably more that I wasn't aware of.

*As for sexuality, I don't think you're trying to say this, but it sounds like you're saying that LDS are more sexual than regular Joes. Are you trying to describe the effect of repression? Cuz sure, yeah, we all wanted some, and we tried to find kosher ways to get it. I think that's perfectly understandable.

This whole post feels like you're intentionally being overly-cynical to...make up for something. Sauron points out that Mormons aren't very good at birth control, and if a fourth of the BYU population was copulating there would be a lot more oopsy pregnancies.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

The line between personal and public integrity? The student athlete who makes one misstep and is publicly outed, versus the academic scholar who is reprimanded and privately forgiven?

If you haven't read The Scarlet Letter, do. The contrast between those whose morality is brought into shame publicly or privately is great, and for all that, may be worse for those suffering from great, unconfessed guilt.

If academics were treated by society with the same adoration and superstardom as athletes, it would be the violations of academics which were publicized. Davies was publicly outed (by the press) because he is is a public figure. The bigger they are the harder they fall, or something like that.

The school should have respected his privacy and have said that it was an honor code violation, but hey, we found out much more than that in less than 24 hours anyway.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Wait, did BYU actually say anything more than "it was an honor code violation"? I've seen the "pregnant girlfriend" or just "slept with girlfriend" comments around, but none of them cited actual sources. Seemed rumor to me - highly probable rumor, but rumor.

[Katya]

Wait, did BYU actually say anything more than "it was an honor code violation"?

I second the question. (Well, I heard them clarify that it wasn't a criminal offense, but that's all.)

[Marduk]

I'll call you mormon ex-pat, Portia, if that suits your fancy.

You bring up some interesting points, but I think a lot of your assumed and stated caveats are misguided or flat-out wrong. I'm still not sure what your overall point is, but if we correct some of these, perhaps we'll get a better perspective.

First, does it make sense that sexual infractions are treated with more severity than others? Yes, it does. This religion calls it second to murder in severity, so it would make sense that it was treated harshly. Second, is it all or nothing? Absolutely not. I've seen individuals have actions taken against them, with regards to the honor code, for every infraction on your chalk gradient; it runs the gamut. Obviously those most severe would be treated the harshest. Your statistics are also WAY out of whack, but that's been addressed, so I'll leave it alone. Also, we have no idea (as wired pointed out) exactly how this infraction played out with the honor code office. So to say that the book was thrown at him, where it would not have been in another equivalent circumstance, is making a judgment call with little to no facts in evidence, and that's something I'm not prepared to do.

You say that Mormons want to have sex more than any other group you've associated with. Well, it is really hard to gauge desire in regards to an activity that is not taboo. If everyone does it nonchalantly, how can we accurately say how much they want to do it? Sexual infractions are far more prevalent among this culture because they are not infractions anywhere else. If we took an equivalent segment of the student body from a different university and subjected them to BYU's honor code, I do not hesitate to say that all but an almost statistically insignificant portion would merit expulsion.

I don't know why you add "childlessness" to your list there. Almost everyone agrees that a child is better off growing up with two committed parents who are emotionally, financially, and socially ready to take care of them. So most people would not advise him to have a child in his current circumstance. Why is this a question?

Pornography use is no more prevalent among LDS members than it is in any other segment of the population, in fact most studies say that it is actually significantly less, but again, most other segments of the population don't see it as a problem, so it is hard to say how many others have a "problem" with it.

Please don't codify beliefs dominant in the culture as being espoused by the religion. If you're familiar with how the repentance process works in this church, you'd know that it isn't an either/or proposition. It is unique to each individual and dependent on the duration and severity of the problem, as well as the sincerity and integrity of the individual. This religion teaches anything BUT black and white, and is not at fault for the misinterpretations of this by some of its members.

Whew, I think I got most of them. Honestly, I'm not sure if that post reflects your true feelings or is simply trolling for a response, but my hopefulness that it was the former made me post a response.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Wait, did BYU actually say anything more than "it was an honor code violation"? I've seen the "pregnant girlfriend" or just "slept with girlfriend" comments around, but none of them cited actual sources. Seemed rumor to me - highly probable rumor, but rumor.

BYU said it was an honor code violation in its news release about his suspension. The Salt Lake Tribune broke the story about him having sex from an anonymous source close to him. The pregnant thing I've only heard as a rumor.

[Humble Master]

Wait, did BYU actually say anything more than "it was an honor code violation"? I've seen the "pregnant girlfriend" or just "slept with girlfriend" comments around, but none of them cited actual sources. Seemed rumor to me - highly probable rumor, but rumor.

BYU said it was an honor code violation in its news release about his suspension. The Salt Lake Tribune broke the story about him having sex from an anonymous source close to him. The pregnant thing I've only heard as a rumor.

While I've seen it reported everywhere from the BBC to ESPN that the violation was premarital sex, I've seen it generally reported that she is not pregnant.

[Defy V]

Well, they did fine without Brandon Davies today. I don't think BYU will be #3 anymore, but we should stay in the Top 10.

Random question: I had a roommate who was a fanatic about sports who told me about all these BYU athletes who got away with a lot. She said Max Hall had had HC issues (don't remember what) and that Harvey Unga had gotten a girl pregnant a couple years earlier (she told me this in like January 2010 . . . before he actually was kicked off of the team), and other such stories. Do you think there's any truth to this? Seeing how quickly Brandon Davies was suspended I just can't believe it.

[Craig Jessop]

Max Hall grew up in my home ward, and his parents are still there. He comes with his wife and kid sometimes, but only to sacrament meeting. He's a jerk and always has been. And he had morality issues during high school and had to come home from his mission early because of them. I'm not sure about anything that happened at BYU.

(Incidentally, John Beck was in our ward until it split. His dad gave my my personal fitness merit badge.)

[Wisteria]

I'm really intrigued that such different experiences can be had at BYU. I also saw next to no major honor code infringements even hinted at. I had one roommate (out of over sixty) who had big pornography issues and probably other morality issues and she was actually a UVSC student, so the honor code only applied to her in terms of living in BYU housing. I had lot of roommates who date a lot but if they had secret side lives that were more sensual they were very well masked, and I had other roommates who didn't go on dates for semesters at a time. I personally didn't ever really struggle with the honor code since it was pretty much the lifestyle I would have chosen to lead anywhere else. I know there were and are lots of problems that I wasn't aware of, but I would truly, truly be shocked (not "shocked and appalled, though:-) ) if 1 in 4 single BYU students were sexually active.
Also, whatever Brandon Davies did is his business, not mine. I realize that he kind of made it a lot of people's business by breaking an agreement that will impact the team, but I have no need nor desire to know what he did. I'm very sad that he has to go through such a public shame, but I personally am going to do my best to leave it alone and let him heal his life without at least this curious onlooker gawking over his shoulder.

[Hypatia]

I knew a man (or, rather, was strongly propositioned by a man) who felt that as long as he didn't have intercourse, he was fine to go to the temple. Incidentally he and his now wife were at least spending nights together, if not sleeping together, right up to their temple marriage (both of them are return missionaries as if that makes any difference). Best part: the wife made up a false report and reported ME to the HCO for sexual misconduct with her husband. WHOA! Talk about crazy BYU students! I had to spend a week preparing a case exonerating me. Luckily, the truth won in the end but still, that spiteful and hypocritical woman effectively ruined my week!

Since then, I've had OPINIONS about the HCO. First off: even if I had morality issues, I fail to see how that is any of the school's business. Isn't this something that should be taken care of at the church level first? And, why put someone through a formal investigation based on a three sentence report and absolutely zero substancial evidence (as was my case)? Basically, the HCO is set up in such a way that anyone, anyone, can waltz in and falsely accuse another student of sexual misconduct which will require a formal investigation. Then, a complete stranger who works for the HCO investigates the claims to decide of the accused is morally worthy to attend BYU. A council meets and votes on the outcome. Sure, we all signed the agreement but I don't recall agreeing to being treated like a criminal for something which isn't a crime.

So what, BD and his girlfriend had sex. They had consensual sex between adults. Should he see his bishop? As a BYU student, yeah, he probably should. Should his intimate and private relationship with his girlfriend be the subject of a formal inquiry? Absolutely not! How deviously intrusive! And now the entire country knows the details of their love life. Not only are their names slandered, but an act which was supposed to have been intimate is now exposed. How does this punishment in any way fit the "crime"?

Oh, and did I mention how little I think of the HCO?

And of return missionaries who sleep around and then accuse innocent people of sins they themselves have committed?

[Marduk]

I'd just like to point out that BYU did not reveal the nature of his infraction. That was done by the Salt Lake Tribune, citing "a source close to Davies."

[Hypatia]

It's true that BYU did not make the nature of his dismissal official but...man, an idiot would have predicted this fallout. Couldn't they have waited until after the shooty hoops games were over when BD wasn't so much in the spotlight?

[thebigcheese]

I've always heard that if you go to your bishop with your issues, the HCO may never even hear about it -- or at least, they will be a lot nicer to you. But that's all hearsay. It's really hard to make an appropriate judgment call when we really don't know much about the process for how Honor Code Violations are handled.

[krebscout]

It's true that BYU did not make the nature of his dismissal official but...man, an idiot would have predicted this fallout. Couldn't they have waited until after the shooty hoops games were over when BD wasn't so much in the spotlight?

That strikes me as exactly the wrong thing to do. Even if the HCO's motivation had been to help keep it more private, if the rest of the world got wind of it, BYU would be called out as hypocrites for selling their integrity for the sake of sports. BYU tried to handle it as discretely as they could, but it was unfortunate timing. They gave him no special treatment even though so much was at stake for them. That fact has been getting a lot of positive attention (hear the kudos on the Daily Show?). I think it shows the Church's true colors to the world, proves our priorities...for better or worse public relations.

[Hypatia]

Sure, BYU stood for "truth and righteousness" at the cost of destroying two people's reputations. It still doesn't seem right to me. After dealing personally with the HCO, it seems that their only concern is themselves. A veritable "greater good" mentality. Ever seen The Crucible? Yeah, HCO.

[Katya]

I support the honor code, but based on this and one other experience, I have a very low opinion of the Honor Code Office. It really is ridiculously easy for someone to falsely and anonymously accuse another student of breaking the honor code, and the student so accused has very little recourse.

I don't think that BYU should have swept the whole issue with Brandon Davies under the rug because, hello, hypocrisy, but I do think that chastity issues would be better handled between a student and their bishop (who could revoke an ecclesiastical endorsement, if necessary), with the Honor Code Office left to police beard length and academic dishonesty. (Although even in the case of the latter, I assume that the accused would have the right to face their accusers.)

A big part of the reason this is getting so much attention is that premarital sex would be a non-issue at almost any other university. If a star BYU basketball player had been suspended for cheating or for committing a crime, it wouldn't have become national news.