Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

a)only one prophet sort of said something that can be tangentially interpreted as this. Like the caffeine thing, it is, in actuality, wresting things from the scriptures that aren't there.

I never said I believe them. Just that those are the arguments I've heard.

Continuing to be slightly off topic, I have always loved playing solitaire and used to carry around a deck at all times. I would substitute Rook cards when I went to girl's camp, but always with a bemused shrug. I never understood that one at all.

Even more off topic, my mother has used the same tone of voice to demand that I never drink caffeinated drinks and never get pregnant out of wedlock. Maybe it's just me, but I think that one of those things is a little more serious than the other. (Don't tell my mother, but I have tried several caffeinated drinks in the past few months and only don't drink them fully because I am such a lightweight it's not even funny.)

I keep wanting to add a "back on topic" section to this post, but I have tried for the past 15 minutes to do so and I'm done trying. Somebody else get us back on topic.

Back on topic: I agree with a lot if the people here that Sunday should be kept as low-key as possible on vacation. I nearly always try to go to church, and avoid amusement parks, swimming, etc. However, I don't have a problem with changing out of Sunday clothes or using public transportation if needed. I think people are allowed different interpretations of keeping the sabbath day holy, but the fact that it is in fact Sunday should never be completely ignored no matter what the circumstances.

Story moment: We took a vacation as a family to San Diego last year, and I decided it would be a great idea to take the kiddos to the temple grounds, have a little chat about temples with them, and come dressed up to take family pictures by self timer. I thought I was making a great mom effort there.

It turns out that the San Diego temple grounds are locked on Sundays. Something I never stopped to wonder about before we went. We did find a patch of grass outside the fence, but it was sorta funny to me.

(For the record, both of our families were really lax about church stuff, for the most part. Neither of us can remember family home evenings, my parents especially ignore Sundays while traveling, and in general church was just what you did, but not a big deal. We both try to do better than our upbringings, but at least we have a common base, I guess.)

Indefinite Integral wrote:...using public transportation if needed...

Wait, are there actually people that won't use public transportation on Sunday? That just seems absurd to me, since for the last 4 years I was in a branch where at least 70% of the members, including me, had to take public transportation to get to church on Sunday.

NerdGirl wrote:

Indefinite Integral wrote:...using public transportation if needed...

Wait, are there actually people that won't use public transportation on Sunday? That just seems absurd to me, since for the last 4 years I was in a branch where at least 70% of the members, including me, had to take public transportation to get to church on Sunday.

I don't know of anyone specifically, although I'm sure there's someone out there fanatical enough. I was just listing things I found to be "ok"

wired wrote:(I think my parents had some sort of caloric output view of the sabbath; her's probably had a family-centric approach.)

I love this observation, because it highlights how much we want to quantify things that are inherently qualitative. (And then we argue when we arrive at different quantitative results.)

Scrupulosity is a psychological disorder characterized by pathological guilt about moral or religious issues. As a personality trait, scrupulosity is a recognized diagnostic criterion for obsessive–compulsive personality disorder.
If someone's really freaking out about something minor, this would seem to be a definite possibility.

Indefinite Integral wrote:

NerdGirl wrote:

Indefinite Integral wrote:...using public transportation if needed...

Wait, are there actually people that won't use public transportation on Sunday? That just seems absurd to me, since for the last 4 years I was in a branch where at least 70% of the members, including me, had to take public transportation to get to church on Sunday.

I don't know of anyone specifically, although I'm sure there's someone out there fanatical enough. I was just listing things I found to be "ok"

Last time I checked, buses in the area don't run on Sundays so it would be pretty difficult for someone to do it here...

Dragon Lady wrote:We did have a friend go to Washington with us once who was super pious about it. We went to sacrament meeting, then headed home (it was a 10-hour drive and my parents both worked on Monday) and I thought she was going to die. It ended up being awkward as she fasted the whole way home because she wouldn't get out with us to eat lunch. Well, until my mom found some snacks that weren't purchased on Sunday and then she ate those. And she turned up her nose every time we stopped for gas. It was a really long and awkward trip home. We did try to make up for it by listening to conference on tape the whole way home. I wish we would have known her views before hand. We could have, at the very least, prepared a bunch of food to take with us before we left and only stopped for gas.

One thing that frustrates me about Mormon culture is our philosophy of having to bow to accommodate the lowest common denominator in any group setting. It's the major reason I would never be involved in a ward-sponsored book club—the larger the club, the narrower our reading options for fear of offending someone.

On a related topic, I also get frustrated with the idea that the person who most restricts their behavior is therefore the most righteous. It leads us to define ourselves more by the things we avoid than by the things we seek. If my Mormon friends and I both seek for things which are virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we may find that different things fill those needs in our lives, but I don't see why I should avoid things that might affect them badly, and vice versa.

A friend of mine once shared that she thought of the Sabbath as the time to do the things that would most benefit from the influence of the collective spirit of worship. I love that idea of flipping around Sabbath observance and making it about the things that you most want that particular kind of help with and not about the ever-increasing list of things you can't do.

Dead Cat wrote:Last time I checked, buses in the area don't run on Sundays so it would be pretty difficult for someone to do it here...

I'm pretty sure Trax runs at least on Conference Sunday, because I'm pretty sure I've ridden it up to the conference center before. But I suppose those could all have been Saturday sessions. I would have worn a dress for either day...

Katya wrote: I love that idea of flipping around Sabbath observance and making it about the things that you most want that particular kind of help with and not about the ever-increasing list of things you can't do.

I like you AND this idea.

Whistler wrote:

Katya wrote: I love that idea of flipping around Sabbath observance and making it about the things that you most want that particular kind of help with and not about the ever-increasing list of things you can't do.

I like you AND this idea.

I like you too! Come move to our planned community!

Katya wrote:

Dragon Lady wrote:We did have a friend go to Washington with us once who was super pious about it. We went to sacrament meeting, then headed home (it was a 10-hour drive and my parents both worked on Monday) and I thought she was going to die. It ended up being awkward as she fasted the whole way home because she wouldn't get out with us to eat lunch. Well, until my mom found some snacks that weren't purchased on Sunday and then she ate those. And she turned up her nose every time we stopped for gas. It was a really long and awkward trip home. We did try to make up for it by listening to conference on tape the whole way home. I wish we would have known her views before hand. We could have, at the very least, prepared a bunch of food to take with us before we left and only stopped for gas.

One thing that frustrates me about Mormon culture is our philosophy of having to bow to accommodate the lowest common denominator in any group setting. It's the major reason I would never be involved in a ward-sponsored book club—the larger the club, the narrower our reading options for fear of offending someone.

On a related topic, I also get frustrated with the idea that the person who most restricts their behavior is therefore the most righteous. It leads us to define ourselves more by the things we avoid than by the things we seek. If my Mormon friends and I both seek for things which are virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we may find that different things fill those needs in our lives, but I don't see why I should avoid things that might affect them badly, and vice versa.

A friend of mine once shared that she thought of the Sabbath as the time to do the things that would most benefit from the influence of the collective spirit of worship. I love that idea of flipping around Sabbath observance and making it about the things that you most want that particular kind of help with and not about the ever-increasing list of things you can't do.

Your words remind me of the movie Chocolat.

Digit wrote:Your words remind me of the movie Chocolat.

I never say no to being compared to Juliette Binoche.

Katya wrote: One thing that frustrates me about Mormon culture is our philosophy of having to bow to accommodate the lowest common denominator in any group setting. It's the major reason I would never be involved in a ward-sponsored book club—the larger the club, the narrower our reading options for fear of offending someone.

Hmm... I think I diverge from you here.

1. On a light-hearted note, wouldn't this be the highest-common denominator? I feel like LCD has a context of immorality.

2. I think it's generally a good thing, but can be taken to excess. I like that we want people to feel welcomed and comfortable. I would much prefer a church (or any group) that is actively concerned about welcoming people and trying to not offend them. I would distinguish this from being purely politically correct - being afraid to broach certain topics at all because of a different view. I would like to see groups avoiding what could be perceived as profane or sacrilegious to invite others, but I don't think they ought to avoid purely difficult subjects. (So, not reading Twilight because someone thinks it is too salacious would be good, but avoiding Uncle Tom's cabin because it talks about slavery and they don't like that slavery happened would not be.)

Really though, my distinction is probably totally unworkable. The line between profanity and challenging are both incredibly subjective and someone would certainly be offended at a subject that I thought was purely difficult as opposed to profane.

On a related topic, I also get frustrated with the idea that the person who most restricts their behavior is therefore the most righteous. It leads us to define ourselves more by the things we avoid than by the things we seek. If my Mormon friends and I both seek for things which are virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we may find that different things fill those needs in our lives, but I don't see why I should avoid things that might affect them badly, and vice versa.

Agreed whole-heartedly! My favorite talk of all time addresses this well:

"We need to develop the capacity to form judgments of our own about the value of ideas, opportunities, or people who may come into our lives. We will not always have the security of knowing whether a certain idea is "Church approved," because new ideas do not always come along with little tags attached to them saying whether the Church has given them the stamp of approval. Whether in the form of music, books, friends, or opportunities to serve, there is much that is "lovely, . . . of good report, [and] praiseworthy" (Article of Faith 13) that is not the subject of detailed discussion in Church manuals or courses of instruction. Those who will not risk exposure to experiences of life that are not obviously related to some well-known Church work or program will, I believe, live less abundant and meaningful lives than the Lord intends. We must develop sufficient independence of judgment and maturity of perspective that we are prepared to handle the shafts and whirlwinds of adversity and contradiction that are so likely to come along in our lives." -Bruce C. Hafen (http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.p ... 7&x=47&y=7)

For the record, I think that talk has helped me understand gospel-living and the atonement better than anything else in my life. It transformed me toward the end of my mission.

When debating morality or whether such-and-such activity violates this-or-that principle of the gospel, it is quite easy to take the most restrictive view. Certainly, God would not be offended if I took the most restrictive position. And even if it is permissible, we can't know for sure so better to err on the side of caution - or so the argument goes. But I think that ignores the reality that mortality is for us not just avoid the bad, but to ultimately become the good. Passively weaving out of the way when an ambiguous situation arises is certain to leave us under-developed, if not under-utilized by the Lord.

Being totally honest with myself, I doubt I live on the Sabbath the way the Lord would want me to. My wife and I watch quite a bit of TV on Sundays. I don't find anything inherently wrong with that. But it's the list of things we could be doing that make me think I'm not quite living up to the best we could be doing. We could be visiting a family in the ward who needs comfort or attention. Or writing in journals that our descendants would read in awe (likely, as they keep the Sabbath day holy by reviewing all of the genealogical records we've provided for them.) I'd love to get to that point where I really feel like I keep the Sabbath day holy. But I have a feeling when I do, it won't be because I've figured out all of the television shows that I should or shouldn't watch, or what types of movies are or aren't sabbath appropriate (only Disney movies that are G rated!). It will be because of the things I've gone out to explore and accomplished.

Katya and Wired, you both hit on points that have for the most part kept me out of this thread. I absolutely abhor the idea of the more we avoid the better people we are. The idea of "some general authority said it once" being used as a reason to avoid things would likely leave life vapid and bland. My sabbaths are far more about the freedom they allow me to do things that I love to spend my time doing, then the things I do because I feel it is the Lord's day.

And that's another point; the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. It is MY day. The guidance the Lord gives is more fully to be understood as using it in the way that will be most beneficial to me, not so I can fast and paint my face to be seen as fasting.

For me, my sabbaths involve church attendance, personal study, rest, and spending time with family. These are all things that I feel pressured that I don't have time for during the week, so the sabbath is how I can break from the world in that regard. Some might feel that my preparing a large meal, and family members driving sometimes long distances in order to be together are excessive labor for the sabbath. But nuts to that. The sabbath is for participating in Godly things, and few things are more Godly on this earth than familial relationships.

This also holds true for me on vacation. Then again, all of my vacations are to see family members, so those decisions have always been easy for me.

Marduk wrote:And that's another point; the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. It is MY day. The guidance the Lord gives is more fully to be understood as using it in the way that will be most beneficial to me, not so I can fast and paint my face to be seen as fasting.

I think this is the most valid point that you've made here. Everyone has and must use the ability to choose for themselves what to do on the sabbath. Today I chose to help a close friend finish his programming classwork so he wouldn't flunk out of college. I don't think that was exactly a "holy" or "resting" activity - it really was hard work. But I reject the idea that I can't be with my friend and help him because the day of the week says Sunday.

To me the biggest indicator of whether I'm doing it right is: am I doing it out of love, or fear, or selfishness? If it's love, then great. No questions asked. Fear or selfishness? Probably time to choose something else. That's why I don't go buy that milkshake at the local drive-through that I'm craving so much. (I probably can't afford it anyway!) Instead I spend time helping my family make dinner. Family time = happiness.

Architect wrote:To me the biggest indicator of whether I'm doing it right is: am I doing it out of love, or fear, or selfishness? If it's love, then great. No questions asked. Fear or selfishness? Probably time to choose something else. That's why I don't go buy that milkshake at the local drive-through that I'm craving so much. (I probably can't afford it anyway!) Instead I spend time helping my family make dinner. Family time = happiness.

I really like this. It reminds me of Jesus choosing to heal people on the Sabbath.