Mother-in-law rant

[Sky Bones]

Sorry, Wisteria. You've got me confused here. Did you just call me... ignorant and judgmental?

[Sky Bones]

Okay, going back and reading my last comment made me think I came across as angry/disturbed. I'm really not. I'm really just trying to understand the point you were trying to make, Wisteria. 'Cause I really don't get it.

[Marduk]

Sky Bones, she's saying that were SHE to judge YOU based solely on that comment, SHE would be ignorant and judgmental. So she isn't going to do that.

[Sky Bones]

Right, so is she suggesting that about all people who make comments, then? That just seems like a tough thing to say on a discussion forum.

[Marduk]

TheAnswer, I have a few thoughts after some consideration of your situation. Feel free to weigh and take what may be applicable, and discard anything that is off-base.

First off, how is your relationship with the father-in-law? My sense has been that the relationship there is at least more cordial, if not more amicable. Remember that he's been dealing with this woman for longer than anyone else in your household, and if you can build that relationship, perhaps he may have some insight into the situation.

Second, how are your relationships with folks that aren't associated with your family or the church at all? The more robust those relationships, the less hostile we percieve the other relationships. As has been discussed, one of the toughest things that parents, especially mothers who don't work outside the home, face, is isolation from outside adults. If you ever want some interaction outside of people you are immediately related to, hit Bob and I up. I can make dinner for you guys. Seriously, if you haven't got this by now, that's one of my favorite things to do. And Bob and I have plenty of experience hanging out with parents. Come to think of it, most of our friends are marrieds.

Lastly, in your conversations with the Lord, realize that His plans for you are rarely set in stone, and rarely an all-or-nothing proposition. Be honest with the Lord about your doubts and fears about what you feel in this situation, and he can open paths that help assuage those. Remember that if something is important to you, it is important to God, because YOU are important to Him.

My heart goes out to you as much as it can over this electronic device. Know that others are mindful of you, and seriously, let me know if you want to do dinner sometime. Bob and I would love the opportunity.

[Marduk]

Sky Bones, nope. Just the ones who are judgmental.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Wisteria also had me a bit confused on the last paragraph. I think in my case, I feel like I am taking the first paragraph backwards - avoiding the real, large issues (maintaining my sense of self and free will in whatever course my life takes) and dwelling on the small and insignificant things instead (how my MIL will react, and how frustrated I am that no one else is standing up to her).

Marduk, my relationship with my father-in-law was good . . . until he died a couple of years ago. The interesting things is that he never actually dealt with his wife. My MIL wanted to be the source of everything her children needed, and saw her husband as the monetary provider and nothing else. My husband says he tried at first, but eventually just shrugged and spent most of his time at work or at the gym. She wanted to do everything herself, so he let her. They acted like roommates.

As for the isolation concept, I think it is telling that I can't come up with any friends that aren't in my family or my ward. Well, actually I do have a lot of friends that are actually my husband's co-worker's wives, or my husband's high school buddies' wives, but somehow they aren't really my friends either. So that just leaves you, the internet friends. But the interesting things is, I think I sort of like having anonymous internet friends. I certainly wouldn't feel brave enough to talk to most people I know about the things in this thread. But since I have only barely put faces to some 'nyms, you are still not REAL people. I can admit anything here! LA, la, la. This IS my therapy, in that sense. Writing this out has SERIOUSLY helped a lot, and I feel a whole lot better than I did last week. Perhaps I could benefit from actual therapy, but to be honest, I think probably every person could. I think what I really needed right now was to sort through what was actually bugging me and why, and this really has done that.

In fact - victory moment! - MIL let me help prepare dinner this week! Food is one of her main ways to be "in charge". She (and her mother) seem to feel best when they provide five times the amount of food that a group could possibly eat. In fact, some of my favorite entertainment is watching them (MIL and Grandma) coordinate a meal together. "I told you that you didn't have to make anything, since you haven't been feeling well!" "Oh, but I didn't do anything much, I just wanted to make some deviled eggs", gesturing to the 8 dozen eggs set out for the 20 people gathered that day, "and the other four things I made were no big deal either". It is great entertainment. I had a hard time with it when we first got married - I would offer to help out for a family party, tell her I was bringing a couple of desserts, and she would make 3-4 more desserts to compensate for what I did. But I have long since learned that it is hilarious to just watch. We have hosted the July 4th celebration for the last few years, and it upset her so much the first year that I let her be in charge of all sides and desserts and we ran out of tables to put it on. But she let me help in the kitchen on Sunday! (I cut up some watermelons. Baby steps.) And when I talked to her about next week's lunch, she sounded like she thought I was in charge!

So, anyway, things are much improved here. I have a big habit of freaking out right before big changes - buying houses, having kids, etc - heck, I even panicked and tried to back out when my husband bought a new washer and dryer a couple of months ago. And the one thing that has always been good in my life is that I married someone whose judgement I trust completely. He calmy explains to me, again and again, why the upcoming change is a good one, and he is starting to get really excited about the idea of a new baby. So that is the biggest thing that is going to help. I really needed this thread to make me realize what I was ACTUALLY upset about, and I don't think it is my MIL or where I live. And, who knows, maybe I will take you guys up on your offers for more real interaction and help. But as I said, don't take it personal if I don't - it is just because I like you guys as fake people, not real ones.

[krebscout]

Email be darned. I want to get some of this off my chest, and it may have no relevance to your situation, Answer, but maybe somebody will find it helpful.

we are having another child because every time I thought about chucking the baby storage stuff I got really anxious about it, and only finally relaxed when I told my husband I was willing to try again.

This put up a little red flag for me, because my husband and I just recently had a conversation that sounded a lot like this. The "to have more or not to have more" cloud has been hanging over my head, too, and with it a lot of anxiety and internal conflict. And I told him that I wasn't sure if what I was feeling was the Spirit telling me that something was wrong or if it was anxiety. Because I've been seeing a counselor for some anxiety and depression issues for the past few months, and it feels like it's messed with my spiritual sensor. He had to remind me that God doesn't speak in anxiety. He speaks in peace and clarity. The Spirit can let you know when something is wrong, and that can be an uncomfortable feeling, but it's not the same as anxiety. Maybe that's what you meant rather than "anxious," I don't know. But I know that I have a habit of punishing myself (with anxiety and negative thoughts) at the slightest provocation, the slightest hint that I might be doing something "wrong" in somebody's eyes. Have you ever experienced depression, or considered it now?

If I had a testimony right now, I guess I would call that a prompting.

This also makes me wonder if chemicals are a factor. Like I said, I think depression messes with my spiritual senses. And I've had struggles in the last year (lining up with the tail end of my last pregnancy and the post-partum period, so when my hormones and chemicals were bouncing all around) that I've never had before. I've woken up to find my testimony a shred of what it once was. And I keep working at it, and I still have struggles and it's still not perfect, but it really scared me how fragile it could get. But looking back, all of these times have coincided with some serious emotional issues. My promptings were never clear, nor were my thoughts. And then when things cleared up for a time, spiritual matters improved as well. I think they're deeply connected.

But when I believe that God is behind that decision, it makes me angry enough to not want to pray about it or anything else. I prayed about it before, and no matter how I fasted about it I never got the actual desire for a kid. The fact that I am expected to do this with no desire is rather infuriating.
So, that might be a bigger core problem, to be honest. I'm not really going to pray for guidance in this instance because I don't want to be told that having a kid is the right thing to do. It will only make me more upset at the church, so I am trying to just ignore it for now, so I don't lose what shred of a testimony I have over it.

Having a lot of kids is cultural. It is not doctrinal. Real life is not Saturday's Warrior, and there is not a line of spirits waiting in heaven to be plucked and put in bodies, and nobody's going to get left behind if you only have two, or three. That's predestination, it's fate, and we don't believe in that. We believe in a God who lets us choose. Maybe in a few instances it's important for a particular family to have one more child or whatever, but I'd say that's as common as having just one person that you're "supposed" to marry. We hear and read talks about the importance of having families, and I talked to my mom the other day about that. She said that those talks are for the people who need them, the people who aren't doing those things. But all of us who really are trying to do our best hear that stern tone of voice and then kill ourselves trying to fulfill commandments we're already doing well on. And you are! You've done your part! You married in the temple and had children! I think God is pleased with your offering.

That's pretty much word-for-word what my counselor said to me on our last visit.

Maybe I am mad at God and my Mother-in-law, since I feel like they are on the same team on this issue.

They're not. Your mother-in-law seems to be acting out of selfishness disguised as love. God acts out of love. Imagine this from his perspective. Say one of your children was tearing themselves apart, distancing themselves from you, and getting depressed over oh, I don't know, maybe an extra-curricular activity that they wanted to put on their college application. After they'd already been accepted to the college. Wouldn't you say that it's okay to drop the extra-curricular? That it's okay to keep going if they found joy in it, but it's okay to stop if they genuinely didn't?

Your mother-in-law wouldn't, apparently, but God would.

Now obviously I'm not your steward, and I'm not one to tell you that God accepts your offering or make your reproductive decisions for you. That is up to you and, for better or worse, some serious prayer and study. And obviously heaven doesn't work like a college application process. Thank goodness we have a Savior.

Anyway...if you even suspect that you have some anxiety or depression going on (and if you're anything like me, you're resistant to this idea. Mainly I refused to think that it was statistically as common as it appears to be...really, how many people on this forum have dealt with it? Maybe we're an odd sample in many ways.....or maybe you know you have depression and this whole parenthetical is just ridiculous), did you know that you can go to a counselor at LDS family services? It's possible that you can go for free (you have to speak to your bishop about that or, in my case, the Relief Society president). It's nice to talk to someone who, if nothing else, comes from the same culture and understands the weird pressures there.

And if you are already pregnant...congratulations? I know you'll give the kid all the love and nurturing they need, because you're already a good mom.

[krebscout]

Okay, you posted your last thing right before I posted mine. Sauron's grandmother is kind of the same way - the woman won't take a bite until she has personally served you your seconds. But she's not big on desserts, and only serves up four-year-old, ice-encrusted praline ice cream into teeny tiny dishes.

Anyway, have you ever read C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce? If not, it's about a bus full of people from hell who make a visit to heaven. The best and most complicated character is a mother who stakes everything on her "motherly love." It's my favorite part.

I'm really glad you're feeling better.

[Wisteria]

Oh, wow. Yes, clarifying. All I meant to say was that in my personal philosophy, judging someone based off of a single sentence on a message board is a very silly thing to do. That's all. Nope, not calling you judgmental or ignorant, Sky Bones. Far from it.

[Wisteria]

Or, what Marduk said.

[Wisteria]

Now I feel the need to explain it more fully. The last bit was a reference to what I see when I read comments on news articles. Half of them are attacking the comments that the other half of the people make and usually involve some kind of ridiculous name calling or judgment passing, based solely off of one or two statements that someone made online. I find it ridiculous. That's one thing I find very refreshing about this board is that that doesn't happen. Does that make more sense?

[Sky Bones]

Thanks for the clarification, Wisteria! I completely get what you were trying to say now and I agree.

I do have more to say on this topic, but alas, I must go to work now. I will comment later and perhaps clarify some of the things I was saying before. 42 and I have discussed this topic together before so I'm sure she understands exactly where I was coming from, but I realize some of my comments may have seen a little outrageous to the rest of you. Will continue tonight...

[TheAnswerIs42]

And if you are already pregnant...congratulations? I know you'll give the kid all the love and nurturing they need, because you're already a good mom.

Thanks, 'cause the pee stick says yes. See what you get when I wake up early and can't get back to bed? You get to hear before my husband, who is still sleeping. To make the math nerd in me happy, it looks like I'm aiming for Pi day.

He had to remind me that God doesn't speak in anxiety. He speaks in peace and clarity.

This is true, but I do think that I am taking the right path here. I don't think I explained the feeling properly. I remember one conversation with my mother in January where I told her we were done. I talked through all my very logical reasoning, and she backed me up 100%, and yet I kept explaining all my reasoning over and over because I was trying to talk myself into it. And when I hung up, I cried, because I knew I just couldn't do it. I'm not sure how to describe that feeling, but I just knew that no matter how much I talked about it, or how much it made logical sense, this wasn't the path for my family. I have not been able to bring myself to toss out one baby item over the years because I just . . . couldn't. I had talked myself into that if Heavenly Father doesn't change my heart overnight, then it wasn't going to happen. But no matter how much I said that, there was just this nagging feeling.

Perhaps a side story is in order. I have gone through this exact same feeling once before, when I was in high school (you'd think that would make me smarter this time around, but you'd be suprised.) The ward I was from in Ohio was a pretty strong one, but all of our youth had a consistent track record - they all either went to BYU, or never went to church after they left high school. Ricks was sort of acceptable. There were no other options. So when I started looking at schools, I wanted to rebel. I wanted to show everyone that you could still be a good person if you went to Vanderbilt (my dad's alma mater) or UNLV (I wanted to live with my oldest brother while I went to school, since his wife is one of the greatest people in the universe to me). I applied to BYU because I felt like I had to, but I told people that I wasn't going to go there unless I got a full ride (with the "pigs fly" sort of tone of voice).

The connection there is that I had my own idea, and didn't feel like praying about it too much because I didn't want to be told I was wrong. I wanted to prove to everyone in my ward that they were wrong, just like I want my MIL to learn a lesson here, and I was picking that over really considering what was best for my path.

I honestly have no idea how I qualified for the full ride that came in the mail the day before I was to send off my acceptance papers elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I was a nerd with 7 leadership positions, great grades and a good ACT score, but . . . it felt like if I wasn't going to listen, I was going to be directed, because this particular choice was important. I think this time around it isn't coming as a piece of paper, but in the form of my husband.

I've woken up to find my testimony a shred of what it once was. And I keep working at it, and I still have struggles and it's still not perfect, but it really scared me how fragile it could get. But looking back, all of these times have coincided with some serious emotional issues.

I could really relate to that. I had a really strong testimony when I was in college, but it has taken a big hit over the last couple of years. Figuring out that my son has learning disabilities, that the delays weren't just going to go away on their own, trying to learn to fight for what he needs and not just hope the system will do what they can, etc, really took a toll on me. A year ago January I had a late period, and I had massive panic attacks because of it. But a year later - once my son got a fabulous teacher and we had passed the mourning period (because there is a stage where you have to mourn that you might have to take care of this child the rest of his life, and he will never be like other kids) I had another late period right before that phone call with my mom and some part of my gut felt dissapointed.

As for depression, that was also a factor this last year. I mean, I've had my ups and downs in my life, but this last year my hormones (IUD?) threw me a new one. Every single month, I would have three or so days in the PMS stage of my cycle where I was so depressed that I felt like sitting and staring at a wall all day. I just couldn't bring emotions out, and all the energy I had went into making sure my kids were fed, etc. But then after three days I would wake up and feel like someone turned on a light switch. I had energy, I would take on projects, I was happy again. Thankfully my body eased out of that again, but I can honestly say that I know what depression feels like. Anyone who has that for more than three days has all of my sympathy in the world. I think chemically, I'm okay. Emotionally, I had a rough couple of years back there.

nobody's going to get left behind if you only have two, or three.

Isn't is amazing how many people believe that? Actually, mostly my in-laws. My favorite is the "since we are LDS, we should rescue as many children as we can so they can be born in the covenant." Because being LDS automatically makes you a better parent than anyone else, even if you have 6 kids under 8 and got so depressed/overwhelmed/post partum you couldn't take care of your own kids for months at a time. That is a quote from my sister-in-law, by the way. I still can't believe they had a seventh after that episode.

Rest assured, I think that is all nonsense. I think it would have been okay if we stopped at two. But for whatever reason, it is better for our family to have one more.

They're not. Your mother-in-law seems to be acting out of selfishness disguised as love.

This is my favorite quote. My husband and I once talked about how she didn't like being social, so she grew her own friends. It just didn't occur to her that they would eventually have thier own lives.

God acts out of love. . . it's okay to keep going if they found joy in it, but it's okay to stop if they genuinely didn't

Yes. But one thing I have to remember is that I am not the only person in my family. So even if I don't actively want another child, maybe it is what our family needs. I know that we are very grateful now that current kids are so close in age because once we found out my son needed help, he already had a peer model at home to help him along. I'm sure there is another reason behind this. If nothing else, we want to make sure that in case we are taking care of my son the rest of his life - we hope that he will be able to blend into a normal job, etc, but we don't know - we don't want all the burden to be on my daughter someday to take care of aging parents and her brother at once. I have a sister-in-law (one of mine, not husbands) who is an only child, and watching her cope with things when both of her parents were in nursing homes on the other side of the country has been awful.

Wow, this thread is taking on a life of its own . . . I should probably stop rambling and get on with my day, but I am glad that I saw this when the kids are not up so I could properly respond. But my husband just woke up, so I guess I lied about you guys hearing it first.

[Katya]

This put up a little red flag for me, because my husband and I just recently had a conversation that sounded a lot like this. The "to have more or not to have more" cloud has been hanging over my head, too, and with it a lot of anxiety and internal conflict. And I told him that I wasn't sure if what I was feeling was the Spirit telling me that something was wrong or if it was anxiety. Because I've been seeing a counselor for some anxiety and depression issues for the past few months, and it feels like it's messed with my spiritual sensor. He had to remind me that God doesn't speak in anxiety. He speaks in peace and clarity. The Spirit can let you know when something is wrong, and that can be an uncomfortable feeling, but it's not the same as anxiety. Maybe that's what you meant rather than "anxious," I don't know. But I know that I have a habit of punishing myself (with anxiety and negative thoughts) at the slightest provocation, the slightest hint that I might be doing something "wrong" in somebody's eyes.

I knew an LDS counselor who framed this situation along these lines: If the Spirit is sending you a bad feeling (a stupor of thought, etc.), he'll also give you an idea of what to DO about it to feel better. Depression and anxiety disorders make you feel sad or damned or anxious without any recourse. If the Spirit was giving you those feelings (or withdrawing so you felt those feelings), you'd also have an idea of what to do or change to feel better, because that's the point of that kind of spiritual prompting.

[krebscout]

Well congratulations again! With an exclamation point this time.

[Katya]

Well congratulations again! With an exclamation point this time.

Oh, right. Yes, in the middle of all this advice-giving—congrats!

[Unit of Energy]

God doesn't speak in anxiety. He speaks in peace and clarity. The Spirit can let you know when something is wrong, and that can be an uncomfortable feeling, but it's not the same as anxiety.

I would just like to thank you for saying this. It's something I've been thinking about in my own struggles and relationships right now.

[NerdGirl]

Congratulations, 42.

[Wisteria]

Heh. Can we have a Board Board Baby shower?