let's talk about sex

[No Dice]

To me you're proposing a terrible conglomeration of the Voldemort syndrome and using ignorance as a way to try to keep people from sinning.

I'm just defending what I think is a reasonable question, not proposing any of the obviously bad things you mention.

[mic0]

bob, I agree with you. No Dice, I'm not sure what would be inappropriate to talk about in an academic setting when it comes to sex. Live demonstrations, sure; a teacher suggesting students have sex for homework to experience for themselves, probably; but pretty much anything that actually puts sex, the mechanics, the anatomy, the feelings (because, seriously, no one tells you about the feelings!), options, in the forefront sounds okay to me. The person in this question was specifically asking about a human sexuality course. I suppose this course might say that homosexuality is natural and good, which the LDS church wouldn't quite agree with, but what else could be construed as inappropriate? I agree with you that probably for this student studying sex in some ways (e.g., watching porn (though, like bob, I would argue that maybe the amateur "in-love" porn that people put up specifically to show what sex in a loving relationship is like, would probably be not so bad, but let's not get too tangential), or a requirement to have sex (which doesn't make sense anyway)) would be problematic, but any academic course at a reputable school (UVU is reputable!) wouldn't do that.

Haha, apparently I have opinions on this. Sex can be so complicated.

[bobtheenchantedone]

To me you're proposing a terrible conglomeration of the Voldemort syndrome and using ignorance as a way to try to keep people from sinning.

I'm just defending what I think is a reasonable question, not proposing any of the obviously bad things you mention.

And I'm saying that that "reasonable" question is a sign of the prevalence of fear and ignorance tactics. Again, look at how much the Church teaches about the temple, despite the fact that it's not allowed until certain ages and/or events and is very sacred. We don't tell everyone who hasn't gone through the temple yet that they just shouldn't think about it until then. We don't let everything be a big mystery, perhaps whispered about from mother to daughter, and let people go through having little to no idea what to expect. We prepare people for it. We even teach our children songs about it! Not that we need to teach children songs about sex. To every thing there is a season, after all. But that season comes enough before college that a sex education class should be highly recommended by the Church, even (especially) for those who aren't yet married.

Mico, great examples of what might at a glance seem to be reason enough for an LDS adult to avoid a sex education course but are actually either not a big deal or are even beneficial. The Church should trust that its adults are intelligent enough to be able to take a class and realize what parts of it do not mesh with their own beliefs. I'm sure there are health classes that teach the benefits of small amounts of wine, and yet we don't have an unwritten ban on those, so why should we be worried that a sexuality class might teach that sex before marriage (including all homosexual relations, of course) is okay? As for porn, showing it in class would usually fall under "falsehood" which I certainly believe is inappropriate, but there are certainly cases where certain forms of it could have its place.

[Squirrel]

As for porn, showing it in class would usually fall under "falsehood" which I certainly believe is inappropriate, but there are certainly cases where certain forms of it could have its place.

I respect that we have different viewpoints, and that's okay.

I believe that there is never a place where pornography is "okay".

This is not in any way trying to have the last say, so please don't take it that way: i'm skipping out of this discussion. It's gotten a little too big for me- i'll let the married's take over
I'm gonna stick to sunshine and butterflies for a while.

[mic0]

bob's not a married! You can have opinions, too!

Which, I think, is part of the point. I did a lot of studying about sex waaaay before having sex, mostly just because no one told me about it. That meant that I formed opinions about it. Just like you can have an opinion on drinking alcohol without doing it, you can have an opinion on sex without doing it. Your opinion will probably change when you do have it, but that's normal.

Also, I think I'll retract my saying that watching any kind of porn in a class could be acceptable. Well, it could be, it depends on why you're doing it, but 9/10 times it probably isn't. Guys, I'm kind of thinking way more about phonology and not thinking straight on the sex topic.

[Portia]

Bob, I'm not sure it's a great analogy, because there's a strong biological drive to have sex, and there isn't to go to the temple. The LDS church doesn't have to do much to keep people out of the temple, but trying to keep people's hands off each other is a lot more difficult. You don't have to have sex ed to want it.

[NerdGirl]

Re: is it ever appropriate to show porn in a class? When we were learning about forensic psychiatry and human sexuality in our psychiatry block, we had a forensic psychiatrist show us screen shots of different types of porn sites in order to illustrate what kind of things were red flags that indicated people might be interested in types of porn that are not ok (eg child porn). She wasn't showing us child porn sites, but there are certain things people watch that are basically imitations of child porn that don't involve actual children that can be a gateway into the real thing. All of the LDS people in my class stayed, but a bunch of the little Christian girls who didn't think it was appropriate for us to be learning about that walked out at the beginning of the lecture. Now, would I prefer to not have had to see those things? Absolutely. But as I doctor I have to know that those things exist so that when someone comes in because they are concerned about their own or their partner's use of porn, I know what I need to ask about to identify those red flags. Having that knowledge will help me to keep children safe. Those girls who walked out may have protected their own minds from having those images in them, but their lack of knowledge puts children in danger. Does everyone in the world need to know what I learned that day? Probably not, but the more people who know and the more we get problems like child porn out into the open, the more power we have as a society to do something about it.

I have many more thoughts about sex, but I just felt compelled to share that after some of the discussion on here.

[Marduk]

You don't have to have sex ed to want it.

Nor, as is critical, does learning about sex make you more likely to want to have it.

[Whistler]

there are certain things people watch that are basically imitations of child porn that don't involve actual children that can be a gateway into the real thing.

I'm... kind of curious and afraid to ask, but is it the kind of porn that involves non-consensual sex and people being in pain? And bribery?

[Katya]

You don't have to have sex ed to want it.

Nor, as is critical, does learning about sex make you more likely to want to have it.

Well, unless you were scared of it before and learning about it allayed your fears. But I'd say that would be a good thing, overall.

[Whistler]

I don't think I realized that humans mated to reproduce UNTIL sex ed

[Portia]

I don't think I realized that humans mated to reproduce UNTIL sex ed

hahaha. This reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon about asexual reproduction, with Wally going, "Divide! Divide!"

when I was five, I wanted to be an OB-GYN. My mom let me read very medical accurate textbooks about pregnancy, fetal development, and childbirth. It was the video of a woman giving birth that cured me of my dream. Hoo boy

[NerdGirl]

there are certain things people watch that are basically imitations of child porn that don't involve actual children that can be a gateway into the real thing.

I'm... kind of curious and afraid to ask, but is it the kind of porn that involves non-consensual sex and people being in pain? And bribery?

That, and stuff that is either cartoons of children or 18 year olds who look younger than they are or adults who are dressed to look like children.

[thatonemom]

Not to drag this back up, but I thought this was a relevant post (from Feminist Mormon Housewives) on teaching about sex and the law of chastity, in the wake of Elizabeth Smart's recent address at a human trafficking conference. Interesting stuff.

[Whistler]

thanks, I really liked those "positive" object lessons

[Portia]

Your sex drive is stronger than 90.1% of the 2271 men and 93.6% of the 4877 women who have completed this questionnaire.

Seems about right from my experience. (And the sample size is big enough for me to put some stock in it.)

[Tally M.]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/24/opinion/s ... Stories%29

Goes back to a couple of topics, including chastity lessons in church.

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

bob's not a married! You can have opinions, too! ...

I did a lot of studying about sex waaaay before having sex, mostly just because no one told me about it.

I have been wanting to learn more, but I'm not at a place where I have access to a college course or something similar that I'd feel comfortable taking. Do you have any resources you would recommend, Mico? I've tended to only use Wiki so far, since they keep their photos pretty clean and focused on the topic, and it's easy to skip around between related topics or to less uncomfortable topics if I ever feel like it's not what I want to be focused on. However, I know Wiki only goes so far in actually educating rather than merely informing readers.

[mic0]

I definitely read a lot of Wikipedia, both for the straight-forward how-does-sex-work stuff and for more in-depth info on what-else-is-there. In high school I frequented a forum called "TeenHelp" and I think they had a sex section and I read all the entries, and visited the sites they linked to which were geared towards teens having their first sexual encounters. I don't really remember much about them except they were very clean, talked a lot about doing what you're comfortable doing, that kind of stuff.

I went to school in Texas so our sex ed was pretty much "THIS IS WHAT STDS DO TO YOUR BODY, DO YOU WANT THAT?!" Which was disgusting but also did very little to change the way I felt about boys. Go figure. I'm trying to remember any other avenues I used to learn about sex, but honestly that's about it. I also remember this site: Go Ask Alice! It is like Columbia University's version of the 100 Hour Board, mainly geared towards students' concerns about sex, physical health, mental health, and relationships. I think I found it because I was researching for a Board question at the time asking whether or not other universities have anything like the Board (I could be misremembering). Anyway, it has a lot of frank discussion about sex, both the straight anatomy to fetishes to psychological reactions/feelings about sex in general. I think there is a lot of insight there and it isn't "dirty," but it does talk about a ton of issues.

That's all I can think of right now. :/

[Whistler]

I admit, I learned a lot about sex as a teenager from my free subscription of Cosmogirl (well, I remember being vaguely scandalized almost every issue). This is going to sound weird but I really recommend the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility! It doesn't talk about sex itself very much, but it does give instructions on how to know your own cycle (assuming you are a woman).

I learned a lot of things I didn't want to know from urbandictionary, and I learned a thing or two from Go Ask Alice! just now.