Too Many Mormons

[Dragon Lady]

Which part of our culture do you think we will take with us?

Whichever part we personally lived, I guess. And hopefully they'll blend and merge and we'll all end up gravitating to the best aspects of each culture.

Also, what if you met a Mormon who was trying their best to be a good person, but they said that they hated many aspects of (contemporary) Mormon culture? Would you tell them that they probably wouldn't be happy in heaven, then? Or at least not in the Celestial Kingdom? Would you consider this attitude evidence of sin or unrighteousness?

No. Not at all. At least, not right off the bat. I think a lot would depend on what part of culture they hate. "I hate that people tend to look down their noses at those whose weaknesses happen to be among the more visible sins, such as a morning cup of coffee." The sin here, is in the people looking down their noses and judging someone else's weakness simply because it is visible. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. "I hate how… friendly! everyone is around here. Can't we all just get in a good fight and scream cuss words at each other every once in awhile?" That I would be a little more concerned about. But again, I'm not without sin, so I'm not going to judge that. But I would be skeptical to believe that THDotCK is going to include throwing a few good punches every once in awhile, just because their neighbors are too friendly.

And to everyone, I use the term "Mormon" in the afterlife to classify those people who have accepted the Gospel of Christ as the here-and-now LDS church professes to be true, whether or not that specific classification is used in the actual afterlife. I'm using it as a familiar term that people can understand. And so far as we believe, you have to accept that gospel, accept the truth of it, and accept all of the saving ordinances, in order to make THDotCK (the actual terminology is too long and the acronym looks ugly. No winning here.) after the Final Judgement. You can say that there are thousands, if not millions, of people who are sealed to their spouses who have never accepted the gospel and thus aren't Mormon, but that sealing only holds so long as they accept their baptisms and accept that sealing ordinance (and all saving ordinances), which in my head, makes them Mormon, for all intents and purposes of this conversation. When discussing their religion as compared to other religions on this earth, they are Mormon. Whether or not we will use that classification later.

[Marduk]

But, you see, they aren't Mormon. And that's precisely the problem here. By complaining about particular aspects about the way this given religion is practiced right now, that doesn't by default mean complaining about the Gospel. My point is that the amount of truth that the LDS church has right now pales in comparison to all of the knowledge held by perfected souls in a celestialized (I'm liking this word) life. It makes no more sense to call them Mormon than it does to call them Jewish. Not to mention, the church as an entity won't exist after this life (it won't be needed) which means many of the most frustrating things about this religion (we'll lump them all in under that big umbrella that we overgeneralize as "imperfect people") will go away. Part of the problem, in my opinion, IS the church and the way it operates. I'll give some examples (since I know that's what everyone is dying for.)

Home teaching. Home teaching is a small step towards going out of one's way to look out for and care for his neighbors. Is someone who simply fulfills his monthly obligation and teaches a lesson out of the ensign to the families he's been assigned living the Gospel? Absolutely not. The Gospel means a greater understanding and caring for ALL of those around us, as a 24/7 obligation, not a monthly one. This practice, and many others within the church (essentially, the way meetings are designated by a calendar, and we have meetings for most organizations) tends to marginalize any who don't attend that particular meeting; it causes us not to look beyond our own for those who need comfort. And one of the key aspects of becoming charitable is learning to seek not our own. (And no, even in the afterlife, there are those who are not our own: there are many people who have a sex that is not our own, for example, and it is often harder to understand their needs than someone who has a sex that is our own.)

Tithing. There's a whole lot of wealth seeking that goes on in this church, which means there is a whole lot of poverty in this church. Until we can get beyond the mentality that 10% means I'm following the Lord, we will have poor among us. As we know there is no poor in the afterlife, it is because we have imparted of our substance, not because the nature of creation has changed. Simply put, we CANNOT be Zion while some live in mansions and others often don't even have a home.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. the Gospel of Christ as the here-and-now LDS church is quite simply incomplete. We can make guesses as to what the Gospel will look like when every principle is understood, but we can't know. We cannot understand perfect laws until we ourselves are perfect, which means it is really difficult to say which parts of our policies/practices/cultural norms will be acceptable. (Will facial hair come back? How about Alcohol, is that an eternal principle? What will polygamy look like? Will there be polyandry? There is reference to burnt offerings being practiced again, what about that? What about women and the priesthood? What about ANYONE and the priesthood? When the church structure is dissolved, what will the authoritative bodies look like? Or will there be? We know Christ will be at the head, will there be any intermediary structures? What about the more mundane things like modular house structures and community boundaries and family structure? What will those look like?)

[Portia]

All this talk of the next world. Maybe we can make Utah like these lyrics to "Sal Tlay Ka Siti:"

And I'll bet the people are open-minded and don't care who you've been
And all I hope is that when I find it, I'm able to fit in...
Will I fit in?

Sal Tlay Ka Siti, a land of hope and joy

... I think that's a darn decent goal for my hometown.

[Portia]

I should have been a little more specific. Pretend I said, "Highest degree of the Celestial kingdom" which, yes, will only be Mormons. Because you have to be sealed in the temple in order to reach it.

Um, no. Mormonism is specific to this time on Earth. Being sealed to a spouse only necessitates being Mormon if it happens while you are living, which do not describe the vast, vast, VAST majority of sealings.

Aha! The best argument for taking your chances, since you will inevitably be baptized and sealed ex post facto. The theology on this never made sense to me.

[Marduk]

Except that Mormon ideology isn't solely about ultimate destinations, it preaches that following its precepts will make a person the happiest IN THIS LIFE as well.

[Portia]

Except that Mormon ideology isn't solely about ultimate destinations, it preaches that following its precepts will make a person the happiest IN THIS LIFE as well.

I will ponder this. Although I don't think it's true for everyone (my brother, for instance).

[Dragon Lady]

Also, you may be baptized, sealed, etc. after death, but that doesn't mean you'll accept it then, either. Having those ordinances done does not guarantee one exaltation. If you're not happy living those covenants on earth, you won't be happy living them afterwards either. And God loves you so much, He'll put you where you'll be happy.

... does that make sense?

[Portia]

It makes sense from a TBM perspective, but it seems a little élitist from where I sit. Fortunately, I think it's a moot point, so I'm not going to be offended. :)

[Portia]

Dragon Lady, do you agree with the Catholic convert here? Her attitude toward her own parents annoyed me.

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/74849/

[Dragon Lady]

I don't. I think everyone should be given a chance to accept the gospel. It needs to be their choice.

[Portia]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/75209/

Epic response to the Great Morridor Debate. I loved both of them.

As a Utahn, and an admitted cultural Mormon, I've seen little correlation between state of origin and level if activity. Nor is parental level that predictive. Adults have free will (or agency, as LDS call it), and if you want to leave, you'll leave.

One thing that saddens me is this idea that your worth as a parent or your testimony is reflected in your grown children's testimonies. My best friend from childhood has recently left the Church, and I can't express to you how much I love and respect his patents. He feels the same. His dad has accepted it, but his mom is convinced she was a horrible mother (false). He's 25. Why should this awesome woman beat herself up and be looked down on in the community for a son with a happy marriage, a college degree, and lifelong friends??

It's just a really no-win situation when the number of temple marriages or missions among your children is treated like a righteousness Field Day awards ceremony. I did not lose a lot (not all) of my beliefs because of my upbringing. Especially with it being my mother's birthday, it just makes me sad that any other people would think that she was anything but stellar. (Fortunately, my parents' self-esteem was grounded in other things. :) My dad isn't trying to reconvert me, and it helps our relationship.)