Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Yarjka wrote: In a classroom, it is disruptive. Incidentally, the same applies to kissing.

Oh man, someone should have told this to that couple in my South East Asian History class last year.

I don't think there would really be any diversity when it comes to kissing in the classroom. I think that can be universally said to be inappropriate and unnecessarily distracting. To the credit of the mothers, breastfeeding is a necessity but the question then becomes whether or not she should be attending the class at all.

I don't think it applies to say that we need to cater to everyone's level of comfort or disruptiveness, because it can easily be taken to the extreme. However, breastfeeding is something that I believe enough people have a problem with to merit a ban of sorts. I applaud the mother for wanting to finish up her schooling and all that, but I think she oughta wait a few months. I still think it's inconsiderate to subject everyone to your uh...methods. Before someone argues that laptops, cell phones, etc are inconsiderate too; I'm not condoning the use of those either.

Someone could argue that I'm being inconsiderate by not 'allowing' the mother to come to class but there's a difference in the two lines of reasoning. The mother had the choice to have the child and the choice to come to the class, I on the other hand am at her mercy.

I just noticed something about the original question. She says, "If it were alright with the teachers and my classmates would it be okay? I would of course, use a nursing cover. How do you even go about asking people about things like that?" Sounds to me like she's planning to clear it with everybody first, and if they have an objection, then hopefully they can work out something. I would first talk with the professor--"I will have a baby right around the beginning of the semester. What are your thoughts on my bringing the baby to class and, if necessary, nurse him/her while we're there?" I would personally ask through email, as you may want to give the professor time to think about the request, and then go from there.

I don't know if "evening" is even reading this thread, but just in case, that is what I would suggest for her. It is frustrating that there are so many people uncomfortable with the idea of breastfeeding, but that's what you get when you live in a world that's as diverse as ours. I hope you're able to work something out so that most people, if not everyone, are comfortable with the situation.

Here's my deal. A mother should not be forced to not take classes for a few months, as in the long run it is far more detrimental to society to have her unable to take care of her family if something were to happen than to make a few people uncomfortable with the baby in the classroom. Yes, mother's should be considerate. But having a child is not always planned. While I doubt this will ever be an issue for me, currently completely single with less than a year till graduation, I do think finishing school while you still have momentum is really crucial to a family's survival.

I don't think waiting a few months is really that much of an issue. If anything, it may give you a chance to recharge your batteries and finish strong. It's not as though she's just gonna quit school altogether, just put it on haitus for a couple of months. You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

FauxRaiden wrote:I don't think waiting a few months is really that much of an issue. If anything, it may give you a chance to recharge your batteries and finish strong. It's not as though she's just gonna quit school altogether, just put it on haitus for a couple of months. You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

Because somehow when the kid is 4 months old then he'll be able to take care himself without bringing him to class? Taking care of kids isn't something that stops being an issue after a few months.

Yellow wrote:

FauxRaiden wrote:I don't think waiting a few months is really that much of an issue. If anything, it may give you a chance to recharge your batteries and finish strong. It's not as though she's just gonna quit school altogether, just put it on haitus for a couple of months. You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

Because somehow when the kid is 4 months old then he'll be able to take care himself without bringing him to class? Taking care of kids isn't something that stops being an issue after a few months.

No, but by that point he's at least old enough to have someone watch him for a couple of hours. Is bringing him to class every day really a better option? If church is any indication, this mother will be missing out on A LOT of class.

FauxRaiden wrote:You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

Indicating that by taking classes soon after giving birth, someone is not taking responsibility for getting pregnant? Makes me want to smack you.

ahem. wrote:

FauxRaiden wrote:You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

Indicating that by taking classes soon after giving birth, someone is not taking responsibility for getting pregnant? Makes me want to smack you.

Lol, I don't know if I should be flattered or offended. I'm just saying we shouldn't have to cater to these individuals that made their own decisions. I can only say it so many ways. I don't expect anyone to give me special consideration for anything. I'm paying thousands of dollars for school, the less distraction the better. I'm sure she's likely within her right to do it, but I certainly think it rude.

I don't think anyone else has made this point, but a number of times I've been exposed to breasts of nursing mothers. Sometimes the mothers didn't care (as on my mission). Sometimes the baby unexpectedly kicked off the cover up. Or I've looked up suddenly to find the mother just after she finished feeding the baby rearranging her clothes without the cover up, thinking no one was going to look at her exposed breast. The distracting element for me is wondering if I am going to have a bare breast flashed at me at any moment.

My mother wants to point out that she has seen women on BYU campus (yes, even holy HC-protected BYU campus) showing more of their breasts in their regular clothing than most women do who breastfeed in public.

We'd both like to reiterate: HOLY CRAP THIS WOMAN IS GOING TO BE AS DISCREET ABOUT IT AS POSSIBLE. Dude, she's paying thousands of dollars for school too, and she shouldn't have to put off going to school because you don't want to be even slightly distracted by a quiet woman quietly feeding her baby in the back of the class under a cover with the professor's permission.

Stopping now before my ranting and my mother's gets here on the board. : )

My mother's parting words: "You try to raise a stink about this, and someone will contact the Le Leche League and you could have 50 non-covering women have a breastfeeding party around you. It's the law: wherever a woman is allowed to go, she's allowed to breastfeed, and she doesn't even have to be discreet about it."

FauxRaiden wrote:

ahem. wrote:

FauxRaiden wrote:You gotta take responsibility for your actions.

Indicating that by taking classes soon after giving birth, someone is not taking responsibility for getting pregnant? Makes me want to smack you.

Lol, I don't know if I should be flattered or offended. I'm just saying we shouldn't have to cater to these individuals that made their own decisions. I can only say it so many ways. I don't expect anyone to give me special consideration for anything. I'm paying thousands of dollars for school, the less distraction the better. I'm sure she's likely within her right to do it, but I certainly think it rude.

What if it's better for society, as a whole, if nursing mothers can bring their babies to class? Are you willing to make personal concessions for some sort of greater good?

bobtheenchantedone wrote:My mother's parting words: "You try to raise a stink about this, and someone will contact the Le Leche League and you could have 50 non-covering women have a breastfeeding party around you. It's the law: wherever a woman is allowed to go, she's allowed to breastfeed, and she doesn't even have to be discreet about it."

Maybe at a public university, but this isn't a public university. BYU could ask her to step out of class for having a child in the classroom even if she wasn't nursing.

I think it's out of line. This isn't an issue of whether or not it's legal--it's an issue of whether or not it's appropriate, and it's not. You can rationalize and justify why it's legal or conceivable all you want, but the world being what it is today, it would be a huge distraction in a classroom regardless of how quiet a baby was. I know she's trying to be discreet, and bless her for it, but missing fifteen or twenty minutes to leave class and nurse in a more appropriate place is a much better alternative than ruining 20-40 manhours for the rest of the class by staying in the classroom to do it. I'm sure she could find a charitable soul that would take notes for her in that time that she had to leave.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that's the way it is. As for the modesty comment--I'm not justifying the immodesty of some women, but there is a huge difference in someone wearing revealing clothes and someone accidentally exposing their entire breast to you. Yeah, I see a lot of breast surface area every day, but not every square inch of that surface area is equal--just sayin'.

1. It is possible to breastfeed without exposing anything at all. This woman sounds like she will be. (Really! It is! I'm getting this from a woman who has breatfed 8 children, not from a guy who has seen a couple of breasts!)

2. I still don't understand how quietly breastfeeding in the back under a cover is more disruptive than leaving and coming back one or two times. You know, where the baby will fuss, so she'll have to pack up, leave her seat, leave the classroom, and then come back, make her way to her seat, sit down, get her baby arranged, and pull out all her stuff again. If she's breastfeeding in class, she'll probably have everything set up as soon as she gets there (and again, she will be in the back of the class and anyone else can choose to not sit by her) and then just do a little adjusting and covering if the baby fusses.

3. I do not see how this is inappropriate. At all. Maybe if she just plops down in the middle of the room, pulls up her shirt, pops open her bra, and attaches the baby without a care in the world, but again, that is not what she is going to do. She's not ruining anyone's concentration unless they choose to be distracted, and they can move away from her if it's really going to bug them.

4. I think it's really insensitive to ask someone to leave her class once or twice every class period just to make sure that no one else is even a bit put out. Not to mention that you will be inconveniencing someone else - "So, what'd I miss this time?"

I am now going to be very rude, condescending, and otherwise indulge in behavior that ill fits an admin.

*ahem*

"Dude! Don't have babies! Or at least, if you do have babies, either leave them home all the time no matter how many babysitting and formula dollars it costs you, or never leave your house until they can act like a normal human being!"

Also, please forgive me when I eat in class because I have hypoglycemia, take the nearest parking space and take up the roomy seats in the theater because my relative is in a wheelchair, ask you to move because your impromptu missionary lesson is blocking my entire booth, and allow my 2-year-old sister to whisper to me in sacrament meeting instead of taking her out. I know I am being very selfish and inconveniencing the rest of the world. I apologize for not being normal and perfect like you are.

This may be digressing a bit from the current trend of this discussion, but several departments on campus apparently have policies that specifically ask students not to bring children to class at all (nothing to do with breastfeeding or not). At least, statements like the following are very common in the syllabi for math and physics classes:

Children in the Classroom

The serious study of the physical and mathematical sciences requires uninterrupted concentration and focus in the classroom. Having small children in class is often a distraction that degrades the educational experience for the entire class. Please make other arrangements for child care rather than bringing children to class with you. If there are extenuating circumstances, please talk with your instructor in advance.

I understand that in general, people here are strongly in favor of bringing children to class, but I really think there's a decent argument against bringing small children to class. And apparently so do quite a few professors at BYU.

(This particular statement was taken from here, but a phrase search will turn up other nearly identical examples as well.)

I'm actually neither for or against children in class. It depends on the subject matter to me. For the most part I'm cool with it, but in classes where I have a harder time I would prefer no children.

Laser Jock wrote:This may be digressing a bit from the current trend of this discussion, but several departments on campus apparently have policies that specifically ask students not to bring children to class at all (nothing to do with breastfeeding or not).

Personally, I always found it peculiar that some students bring their children to class on a regular basis. It certainly can be VERY distracting.

I mean, maybe your husband randomly has a dentist appointment and can't take care of the kid one day. That's fine, I can understand that. But it seems to me that bringing the child on a regular basis should be an avoidable situation. Surely they could make some sort of permanent arrangement? The husband and wife could plan their schedules so that while one is in class, the other is available. But maybe that's not possible in all cases. As an unmarried non-parent, I don't really have much experience in the area. It just seems like you could work around it somehow. Maybe BYU needs a daycare, if they don't already have one.

It seems to me that there are many examples where it simply isn't appropriate to bring small children to something. Most concerts, for instance, at either BYU, Temple Square, or elsewhere, prohibit bringing small children (because they would disrupt the performance). You can't bring children to the temple. And so on.

Now, does that mean that new parents have a hard time going to a concert, or even to the temple? Absolutely. Talking to a family member who's dealt with this, they and their spouse couldn't go to the temple nearly as often as they wanted after they had their child. I think they went four months without going after their child was first born, because you can't really leave a newborn with a babysitter. (Even after that, they had to limit how often they went, because it can be hard to find a babysitter.) But that's just part of what being a parent entails. Sometimes other very worthy pursuits have to be curtailed.

For what it's worth, I agree with thebigcheese: most of the time, I think it's inappropriate to bring small children to class on a regular basis. If something comes up one day, then okay. But otherwise, I think it's best to either coordinate things with the other parent or arrange for childcare—or even consider taking a little time off of school, if necessary.

(Please note that I'm not saying there are never any exceptions. Perhaps a financially-destitute single parent would find it necessary to bring their child to class, or something. But in the majority of cases, I feel like other arrangements should be made.)

bobtheenchantedone wrote:1. It is possible to breastfeed without exposing anything at all. This woman sounds like she will be. (Really! It is! I'm getting this from a woman who has breatfed 8 children, not from a guy who has seen a couple of breasts!)

Yes it's certainly possible but that doesn't mean it's always achievable. As Vorpal has said, it's not always the woman's decision how discreet she is. Accidents happen. To my horror, I've seen some of my sisters' anatomies on more than a few occasions as a result of this.

2. I still don't understand how quietly breastfeeding in the back under a cover is more disruptive than leaving and coming back one or two times. You know, where the baby will fuss, so she'll have to pack up, leave her seat, leave the classroom, and then come back, make her way to her seat, sit down, get her baby arranged, and pull out all her stuff again. If she's breastfeeding in class, she'll probably have everything set up as soon as she gets there (and again, she will be in the back of the class and anyone else can choose to not sit by her) and then just do a little adjusting and covering if the baby fusses.

Even if breastfeeding is no more distracting than leaving class a few times, it's certainly no less distracting. The baby is fed, burped, possibly puked, etc. I don't see that that's any less distracting than leaving class. In any case, the baby will likely fuss whether it's fed or not. The simple rule of dealing with children seems to be that they'll always make noise whenever it's the least appropriate. My problem isn't just the breastfeeding, it's the fact that the child will provide other distractions regardless.

3. I do not see how this is inappropriate. At all. Maybe if she just plops down in the middle of the room, pulls up her shirt, pops open her bra, and attaches the baby without a care in the world, but again, that is not what she is going to do. She's not ruining anyone's concentration unless they choose to be distracted, and they can move away from her if it's really going to bug them.

This is a church institution. Would you really be inclined to think it was acceptable if she whipped it out during the middle of sacrament meeting or a temple ceremony?

4. I think it's really insensitive to ask someone to leave her class once or twice every class period just to make sure that no one else is even a bit put out. Not to mention that you will be inconveniencing someone else - "So, what'd I miss this time?"

And it's not insensitive to subject everyone else to your ideas of what's distracting or not? This isn't a matter of mere inconvenience, it's a permanent distraction in my class, takes my mind off the subject matter, and frankly just makes me uncomfortable to begin with. I think it's insensitive to force others to conform to the way you think just as much as you think it's insensitive to deny these people from coming to class.

I am now going to be very rude, condescending, and otherwise indulge in behavior that ill fits an admin.

*ahem*

"Dude! Don't have babies! Or at least, if you do have babies, either leave them home all the time no matter how many babysitting and formula dollars it costs you, or never leave your house until they can act like a normal human being!"

Also, please forgive me when I eat in class because I have hypoglycemia, take the nearest parking space and take up the roomy seats in the theater because my relative is in a wheelchair, ask you to move because your impromptu missionary lesson is blocking my entire booth, and allow my 2-year-old sister to whisper to me in sacrament meeting instead of taking her out. I know I am being very selfish and inconveniencing the rest of the world. I apologize for not being normal and perfect like you are.

Again it comes down to a matter of choice. This mother and others made the active choice to indulge in a lifestyle that produced the child. I'm not saying she should be abstinent but she should take responsibility for the choice she made. If she couldn't afford to pay for the child's babysitter, formula, etc. maybe she shouldn't have had the child? Or she should try to find another suitable alternative. I don't pick on hypoglycemics, diabetics, etc. because they never had the choice and I feel that's more deserving of special consideration than someone that chose their situation.

On an unrelated note,

Argh, is there a way to multiquote on this board? I wanted to reply to a number of different quotes but don't know how to do it. Oh well.

Instead of repeating myself over and over again, possibly getting more and more rude, I'm going to quit this conversation. I suggest anyone else that does not have anything new to say do the same.