Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

The topic of women shouldn't dress modestly because of what might be going through a man's mind has come up several times in this conversation. And in general, I agree with you. It is not a woman's responsibility to "control" a man's thoughts. That is definitely his responsibility and I am not going to argue with that at all. Not one bit. We are all responsible for our own thoughts.

That said, I want to relate a conversation I had. And I've related it several times either here or on the Board. But it's had a big impact in my life, so I'll share it again.

I once dated a guy that I respected very much. He was very spiritual, very thoughtful and in general, the perfect LDS guy. Then one day he decided to tell me that he had had a very serious pornography problem. He struggled for years and years until he was finally able to quit and hadn't viewed pornography for a year, but he still had to work very hard to stay away from the temptation. He was even careful to avoid the underwear section in things like Target ads. He did everything he could to stay away from anything that could tempt him, then in the situations he couldn't avoid, he focused really hard to control his mind. I was very impressed with him. He stood very firmly in the idea that he was responsible for his thoughts, not any girl he was around. If a girl showed cleavage and his mind wandered, that was his fault, not hers. He would never ever ever place blame for his weakness on someone else.

But, and this is the part that struck me hard, he then thanked me for always being modest. He said that while his weakness is his own problem, it was so much easier to resist temptation when it wasn't flaunted in his face. He thanked me for being willing to follow the counsel of the prophets to dress modestly. He thanked me for not making his job even harder. He then stressed again and again that what I wear is my business, not his, but that he was grateful for my choices and wanted to let me know.

My opinion on the matter of why girls should dress modestly has changed drastically from that moment. I still agree that it's not my problem if I wear something that sends a boy's mind wandering. Personally, my clavicles aren't sexy and if they show, I don't care nor do I think it's immodest. It's not my fault if a boy's mind wanders. However, I now check my clothing for modesty, not just because I've been counseled to do so, but because I remember the gratitude that boy showed me, and I recognize that by dressing modestly, I'm doing a service for guys that are struggling to overcome a weakness. And I like doing service.

I wasn't saying she was a horrible person because she hadn't been to the temple. I just said that it concerns me that she had been a member for nine years and hadn't been to the temple.

Let's see if I can use a story to illustrate the difference between what I'll call "deep concern" and "shallow concern."

I once had a conversation with a coworker (who was an ex-Catholic) about how religious people use the phrase "I'll pray for you." She said that if she had cancer and a friend offered to pray for her, she'd be touched by the sentiment, even though she's no longer religious. However, when she gets into a fight with her sister over their different worldviews, her sister often retorts "Well, I'll pray for you" as a way of ending the conversation. When the sister says "I'll pray for you," it's clear that she's not actually concerned for the overall welfare of my coworker, she's just mad and she's trying to use religion to make my coworker agree with her.

In the first case, it's clear that the person speaking cares about someone else as whole person. In the second case, the person speaking only cares that someone else conform to a particular standard.

So. If you were truly concerned about Tracy (the woman who wrote the article), why did you express no concern about the way she feels the Church has led her to become judged and (worse) more judgmental? Even if you disagree that Church rhetoric or teachings on the topic of modesty need to change, aren't the painful experiences of one soul still worth acknowledgment and empathy? Why (mistakenly) home in on the fact that she hasn't gone to the temple within what you think is an appropriate time frame?

I guess what was trying to say was that I think it's okay to be concerned when someone has been an adult member for a long time without receiving temple ordinances, but that doesn't mean we should assume a motive for them.

Maybe. I suppose it depends on what effect being "concerned" has on your speech and behavior. People aren't stupid. They know when they're someone's project. They know when they don't measure up to someone else's standards.

In the professional world, I'm treated with respect and admiration. (Also, possessiveness. The Special Collections Department thinks I belong to them and them alone. ) In the Mormon world, I'm primarily a source of "concern" because of my age and marital status. I can well imagine that many Mormons are kind enough not to jump to conclusions about the reasons behind my state, but the difference in the way I'm treated in the two worlds is still striking. Be careful about reducing people to one or two variables, even if they're variables you think are of great importance. You run the risk of pushing an already marginalized person out of the Church altogether.

For those who are interested, the following link is to a podcast by the Mormon Matters group called "Healthy Approaches to Teaching Modesty"

http://mormonmatters.org/2011/07/20/43- ... g-modesty/

It's a bit lengthy, about 1.5 hrs, but the podcasters address several topics which have been discussed in this thread. Super, super interesting stuff.

Myself, I only dress to twitterpate lesbians. They just can't control themselves!

I would like to see both men and women dress more formally. It wouldn't kill people to invest in some nice slingbacks or a well-constructed polo, would it? I'm kind of in love with Mad Men style A-lines and hats and thigh high nylons. Dressing appropriately for your figure, for the weather, for the work situation seems like a valuable life skill, whether you're wearing weirdly bulky and cumbersome underwear, a burqa, or a hard hat.