Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I'm more religious but (not very) spiritual. I've attended other Christian denominations, but they seemed to have the same doctrinal problems with a less welcoming/fun atmosphere.

When I was totally inactive, I was neither religious nor spiritual.

I feel like Mormonism is my ethnicity as much as someone doesn't stop being a Jew just because they don't observe Shabbos. I'd even consider my gay great-uncle who's been all but married to a man for four decades as a Mormon of some sort, even if that is ex-Mormon.

I think Mormonism is pretty welcoming to people who don't really believe, or only partly believe, but still show up. Mormonism is sometimes pretty booster clubby but I see that neither as a problem nor surprising. From my notes from Church today:

"is my life better with 'the Gospel'? outside the 'club' aspect?

sense of belonging - 'part of something'"

My current reasons for activity might be viewed as sort of a reverse Pascal wager: I think that God probably does not exist, at least in the sense that most Mormons view him, but if being part of the Mormon community makes me happier than not being does, why not?

When I first heard about a life-changing familial crisis, I didn't know what to do. I was already feeling very much alone, depressed, cut off from social ties, and definitely being a poster child for many of the things Dallin H. Oaks thinks one ought not to do.

Interestingly, in one of those serendipitous moments of life, I was at my apartment complex's hot tub, and talked with two high school girls about their dreams, their college apps, and my situation and my indecision. There was a Christian girl, who said in that earnest way churchgoing types have, that clearly this was a time I needed to be with my family, and move back home. And she was right, and I did.

So I felt less like a non-Mormon than a dormant Mormon, that the person I was meant to be might not be the freshman Cougar bride I fought so much against (psh, like any guy wouldn't have figured that out in, like, 2 days), but that it wasn't this desensitized angry atheist hermit, either.

So I don't know what I want to teach my own children, down the line. My S.O. and I both have a pretty strong desire for a "happy Mormon family," although we're not very good Mormons. This is abundantly clear to me on his end, because he is closer to his family than any 25-year-old I know; he visits them, he talks with all of them, he has a very real desire for their approval. And he has a fairly "typical" (though by no means uninteresting) family with a Bishop father, returned missionary brother, etc. I really want my children to be responsible, kind, and maybe a little bit sheltered: I look at the kids I work with here in Utah and their innocence is charming. To me, being a Mormon is less about one-up-manship on the refreshments committee or what you declare in tithing settlement, and more about knowing who you are, where you come from, and what your future means to you.

In an ideal world, I could be simply a very liberalized Mormon: one who doesn't take the literal truthiness of the Book of Mormon evangelically, one who would rather read novels than attend temple sessions, one who can bleed BYU blue but still hate the HCO. But in reality, in a grown-up world, I don't know if this is sustainable. If I had an eleven-year-old daughter, and she asked me why her brother could serve the sacrament and she couldn't, I'd have no good answer. If someone asked me to give a talk on . . . on a lot of things that aren't covered in the 13th Article of Faith, I might be at a loss. But I don't feel like saying that I'm not sure about things means I need to have an ugly divorce.

I agree that in Mormonism, overcoming "even one shred of dooooubt" as the song puts it is an important experience. But I'd wager that unlike many other Christian denominations, there's not one "born again" moment that you can live on and expect that to work. Even the words we use (again, from "I Believe"): "I allowed my faith to be shaken," "time to set my worries free," "have no fear," seem to imply that there is a lot of worrying, fear, and faith-shaking in the Mormon experience. In fact, that might be THE definitive Mormon experience. I feel like whatever Godly being there is knows that and knows it doesn't make a whole damned lot of sense, but that overcoming trials (trails? thank you TAMN) is what actually makes your conviction stronger. I guess that I feel the Church is reform-able, and that the things that really, really matter to me align well with the Church's goals.

A lot of people I've known who have left the Church (or another church, usually Catholic) and become agnostic or atheist seem to fit the "secular spirituality" definition more than the meditative-prayer type of spiritual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality. Most of them have left the Church largely because of how difficult it can be to reconcile parts of the scriptures and how they imply God is with what we declare Him to be like and what we believe an all-knowing, all-loving God should be. So maybe disillusionment with scripture can lead to a disillusionment with organized religion?

wired wrote:Another aspect is the hierarchical nature of the Church. Many members of the Church view God in a directly linked role with the Church all of the time - every decision made about the Church is a memo sent from God to the First Presidency. Now, I'm a believing Mormon who is quite active, but I don't buy that interpretation of it. But when people reinforce that model, it makes those who become disaffected with the Church, disaffected with God as well.

We were talking about this in one of my classes. We were reading an article that was trying to resolve the Church’s concept of personal revelation with literary theory. The author was suggesting that revelation as we know it is our expression of what God says. So, Joseph could have related the First Vision in numerous ways, each emphasizing a different aspect of what must have been a pretty complex experience. The canonized version we have would then be the version that was thought to be the most helpful and instructive to us. It emphasizes the corporeal nature of God, but doesn’t keep us learning other things from the First Vision or the nature of God. So the prophets are speaking for God, but we are getting his words through humans who are expressing His word as best as they are able.

That makes more sense to me, since it seems like the God I know personally who has testified of the truth of the scriptures is different from the God in the scriptures. So while God is the same and gets us the information we need for exaltation, people add things to the text because they have their own ideas of what God is like based on their culture. So God seems to change over time.

We’ve also been talking about how readers create meaning from the text based on their own background, and I think this happens a lot with members of the Church. With 1 Nephi 14:7, since the chapter is moving towards the Second Coming, the interpretation that the world in general is polarizing into camps is valid, but there’s this extra cultural interpretation that the “Church of the Lamb” means only the LDS church, when there’s lots of other possible interpretations. If I’m remembering right, a lot of times in the scriptures the word “churches” means congregations or groups, not necessarily different religious groups with differing doctrines. Since Nephi came from a city of “believers” that was about to be destroyed, and lived with member-brothers who kept plotting to kill him, I think he might be very aware of the difference between active-member and good person. If we’re talking about the Second Coming and drawing lines, then I would think that the two groups would be the wicked who will be destroyed and the righteous enough to be spared. If I’m remembering the Gospel Principles book right, the “righteous” includes everyone who lives a good life and tries to do what’s right, regardless of whether or not they’re affiliated with the Church or want to be. So maybe the battle lines these verses are drawing aren’t quite as “in or out” as they seem. The beginning of the chapter is about repentance, and though 1 Nephi 14:10 and 2 Nephi 10:16 and other “if you’re not with me you’re against me” are probably the basis for the assumption that every person is either a member of the Church of the Lamb or of the devil, I don’t think this makes sense within the context this revelation is being given in. (Only the Sith deal in absolutes, ya know?). 1 Nephi 14 is talking about repentance, and if the Gentiles or whoever change, not judging everyone before they’ve finished developing. 2 Nephi 10:16 also identifies the whore of all the earth/church of the devil as anyone who fights against Zion, which would be all of us at different points in our lives, which would put all of us in the church of the devil if we’re dealing in black and white. And certainly helping others and supporting the respectful treatment of others would be fighting for Zion. Since this revelation is being given to help explain Lehi’s dream/vision of the Tree of Life, I like to think of the churches as good and evil, and that scriptures like 14:10 and 2 Nephi 10:16 aren’t labeling us so much as reminding us that we have to actively do good in order to not be supporting evil, and that going along the Iron Rod is a path that involves internal struggle and questioning.


Sorry for that long personal interpretation. It seems like a lot definitely gets implied even if no one means any offense. So I hope I haven't offended anyone further. My dad sometimes says that the church is true to spite its members.

Basically I don't think that God is saying that anyone on this forum is in the church of the devil, or going to be dragged down to burn in hell. I think that God usually refrains from judging us until He has to.

I just want to say: Portia, I love you for quoting Book of Mormon:The Musical.

I think spirituality is a really personal thing. I also think that, given our church's emphasis on having "good" behavior, it can be disillusioning to find out that the prophets were flawed humans and that the God of the old testament is kind of harsh sometimes. But I also feel like I can be a member and not believe everything the exact same way another person believes.