69293 - Singleness and Celibacy

[Portia]

I think if more religiously conservative women could be pro-orgasm, their marriages would be better and their shame responses could be overcome. I always thought that the female sexual response basically wins.

Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but why would people not be pro-orgasm?

I guess it comes down to fear and ignorance. A lot of women are very uncomfortable with their bodies, and I think this translates to sex-negative attitudes. A heaping pile o' guilt doesn't help things. I don't know why we should start loathing our autonomic nervous systems!

[Zedability]

I think if more religiously conservative women could be pro-orgasm, their marriages would be better and their shame responses could be overcome. I always thought that the female sexual response basically wins.

Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but why would people not be pro-orgasm?

I guess it comes down to fear and ignorance. A lot of women are very uncomfortable with their bodies, and I think this translates to sex-negative attitudes. A heaping pile o' guilt doesn't help things. I don't know why we should start loathing our autonomic nervous systems!

Huh. I guess I just never really heard messages that would lead to the guilt thing. I remember having the "chastity lesson" in Seminary, and my teacher starts out with, "So, is sex a good or bad thing?" The class is uncomfortably silent, and finally someone says, "...bad?" His response?" "SEX IS AWESOOOOOOME!" Hahahahaha.

[Yarjka]

I think girls in the church get the message quite clearly that sex is something men want and women need to guard themselves accordingly. Women are on the defensive--they need to defend their chastity and protect their virginity. It's very hard to go from that to "hey honey, come pleasure me."

But even as a guy, I felt guilty after sex because it felt selfish. My wife clearly didn't enjoy it, so I felt bad for getting pleasure from it. (In the past tense, because my wife and I have largely overcome these issues.)

[Portia]

It's very interesting to contrast that with past views on sexuality. I'd say the dynamics Yar talked about were common enough in the ancient world (Rape of Lucretia, anyone?) but in medieval times up through the Early Modern Era, women were seen as irrepressibly horny and trying to seduce rational, righteous men into sexy times. A lot of the humor of Shakespeare's plays comes from the dynamic of irrational/lustful women giving fits to to rational/controlled men.

[Zedability]

I think girls in the church get the message quite clearly that sex is something men want and women need to guard themselves accordingly. Women are on the defensive--they need to defend their chastity and protect their virginity.

This is pretty much my biggest pet peeve with how we're taught about chastity in YW. All the hypothetical scenarios we were presented with were along the lines of "Your boyfriend wants to do X, how should you respond." It was never, "YOU are tempted to go too far with a boy." And it irritated the heck out of me every time.

In fact, my first time making out, my boyfriend said several times, "We can stop anytime you want to." I appreciated that he was afraid of pushing me beyond how far I'd want to go, but eventually I said, "I don't WANT to stop, ok?" Hahaha.

[Katya]

I guess it comes down to fear and ignorance. A lot of women are very uncomfortable with their bodies, and I think this translates to sex-negative attitudes. A heaping pile o' guilt doesn't help things. I don't know why we should start loathing our autonomic nervous systems!

Huh. I guess I just never really heard messages that would lead to the guilt thing. I remember having the "chastity lesson" in Seminary, and my teacher starts out with, "So, is sex a good or bad thing?" The class is uncomfortably silent, and finally someone says, "...bad?" His response?" "SEX IS AWESOOOOOOME!" Hahahahaha.

This interview with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has a lot of information about the issues she's seen regarding LDS women and sexuality.

[Talons]

This interview with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has a lot of information about the issues she's seen regarding LDS women and sexuality.

What a great article. Thanks for linking that.

[Katya]

This interview with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has a lot of information about the issues she's seen regarding LDS women and sexuality.

What a great article. Thanks for linking that.

Sure thing. Now I want to go listen to her Mormon Stories podcasts.

[Emiliana]

I think if more religiously conservative women could be pro-orgasm, their marriages would be better and their shame responses could be overcome. I always thought that the female sexual response basically wins.

Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but why would people not be pro-orgasm?

I guess it comes down to fear and ignorance. A lot of women are very uncomfortable with their bodies, and I think this translates to sex-negative attitudes. A heaping pile o' guilt doesn't help things. I don't know why we should start loathing our autonomic nervous systems!

It also depends on what you see as the purpose of sex. If it's primarily about reproduction, then female orgasm is unnecessary.

[UnluckyStuntman]

I guess it comes down to fear and ignorance. A lot of women are very uncomfortable with their bodies, and I think this translates to sex-negative attitudes. A heaping pile o' guilt doesn't help things. I don't know why we should start loathing our autonomic nervous systems!

Huh. I guess I just never really heard messages that would lead to the guilt thing. I remember having the "chastity lesson" in Seminary, and my teacher starts out with, "So, is sex a good or bad thing?" The class is uncomfortably silent, and finally someone says, "...bad?" His response?" "SEX IS AWESOOOOOOME!" Hahahahaha.

This interview with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has a lot of information about the issues she's seen regarding LDS women and sexuality.

Interesting article, I really enjoyed these two things:

But true intimacy is a willingness to bring your very flawed self to somebody else, to be fully seen by that person, and to embrace yourself enough to let your flawed self be known. I think that truly letting ourselves be known to another person is something both men and women need to learn in order to have positive, intimate relationships.

Women in my research who were comfortable with themselves as sexual beings rejected this double standard completely. They understood that physical intimacy doesn’t have anything to do with placating a man or earning his approval. It’s about expressing themselves to the one they love and maintaining and respecting their own dignity and desire at the same time.

However, this one made me grumpy:

While I was in my PhD program, I was told that I took the pursuit of truth very seriously in comparison to other students—I think that was a reflection of being a Mormon. Discovering what is true really matters, and I think that’s been an important part of my own evolution as a thinker.

As a (former?) graduate student at BYU, I saw many of my fellow MSWs super invested in their research (and in the pursuit of truth, I suppose she would say) and quite a few more who couldn't wait until that part of their program was over. I appreciate that her background and religious experiences motivated her interest in her research topic, but she's stretching it a bit to generalize that sort of dedication to Mormons (or religious people) in general. /minirant