70863 Dealbreakers

[Zedability]

DEALBREAKERS:

doesn't want to stay at home

But it does annoy me when guys use this as a dealbreaker without being in possession of the relevant facts. Some guys seem to use "professional job" as a proxy for "doesn't want to stay at home," so they automatically rule out any girl with a good career. It's annoying when you can sense a guy suddenly losing interest as soon as you mention your job, especially when you really do want to be a stay-at-home mom if the opportunity arises.

Word. So many guys hear my major and are like, "...oh," and stop being interested. It ticks me off. There's nothing I'd like better than being a stay-at-home-mom. The only difference is, I want to learn science while I find a husband =P

[Squirrel]

Yes.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I feel like we've come to the conclusion that a sister-wife is basically a nanny who has sex with your husband. I want a nanny. I don't want her to have sex with my husband. I call dibs.

Sure, if you still insist on seeing a polygamous relationship as one that is in inherently unequal. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep thinking of a sister-wife is basically a best friend who is on equal terms with the husband, in a relationship where there is equal love from the husband to each wife, each wife to the husband, each wife to each other, plus with a special dynamic for all three together.

So many women struggle with the idea of "sharing" their husband... what happens when kids come along? When he has a time-consuming job or calling? When he wants to keep having his own social circle or stay on his dance team?

[Portia]

I feel like we've come to the conclusion that a sister-wife is basically a nanny who has sex with your husband. I want a nanny. I don't want her to have sex with my husband. I call dibs.

Sure, if you still insist on seeing a polygamous relationship as one that is in inherently unequal. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep thinking of a sister-wife is basically a best friend who is on equal terms with the husband, in a relationship where there is equal love from the husband to each wife, each wife to the husband, each wife to each other, plus with a special dynamic for all three together.

So many women struggle with the idea of "sharing" their husband... what happens when kids come along? When he has a time-consuming job or calling? When he wants to keep having his own social circle or stay on his dance team?

I think there's a world of difference between a husband keeping his hobbies and a husband keeping his piece on the side. I don't have any interest in a polyamorous, everyone-sleeps-with-everyone arrangement, and I doubt that's what most people have in mind when they think "polygamy."

[Portia]

DEALBREAKERS:

doesn't want to stay at home

I totally don't have a problem with this being a dealbreaker -- I think it's important for couples to be on the same page about this kind of thing. But it does annoy me when guys use this as a dealbreaker without being in possession of the relevant facts. Some guys seem to use "professional job" as a proxy for "doesn't want to stay at home," so they automatically rule out any girl with a good career. It's annoying when you can sense a guy suddenly losing interest as soon as you mention your job, especially when you really do want to be a stay-at-home mom if the opportunity arises. I guess that sort of ties back to what Katya was saying -- it's important to make sure that you're actually looking at the internal personal characteristics and not just the external things that you associate with those characteristics. (Not saying that Craig has this issue -- just that I've been annoyed by some guys' application of this dealbreaker in the past.)


Most of my bright-line dealbreakers are for first dates, and those are pretty standard safety ones -- I won't go out with random homeless guys who ask me out on the street, or creepy guys who use the phrase "remote cave in the mountains" in their description of their ideal first date, or guys who tell me they've been professionally bike-racing in Europe for the past 7 years when actually they've just been released from a 7-year prison term. And so forth. That rules out the majority of the date offers I tend to get.

Cuts both ways. I have neither a glorious career nor an intimidating major, but that doesn't mean that I don't value the career I do have or that I have nothing "better" to do than to stay home. Not that any man has actually made that assumption, to be clear, but I do think that non-STEM women's career ambitions tend to be devalued.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I feel like we've come to the conclusion that a sister-wife is basically a nanny who has sex with your husband. I want a nanny. I don't want her to have sex with my husband. I call dibs.

Sure, if you still insist on seeing a polygamous relationship as one that is in inherently unequal. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep thinking of a sister-wife is basically a best friend who is on equal terms with the husband, in a relationship where there is equal love from the husband to each wife, each wife to the husband, each wife to each other, plus with a special dynamic for all three together.

So many women struggle with the idea of "sharing" their husband... what happens when kids come along? When he has a time-consuming job or calling? When he wants to keep having his own social circle or stay on his dance team?

I think there's a world of difference between a husband keeping his hobbies and a husband keeping his piece on the side. I don't have any interest in a polyamorous, everyone-sleeps-with-everyone arrangement, and I doubt that's what most people have in mind when they think "polygamy."

Thank you for willfully misunderstanding me. The exact problem is that you ego-centrically think of polygamy as your husband who is all yours having some tramp, some "piece on the side," and I think of it as a mutual and loving relationship where all are equally loved and benefited. And if you think the sharing mentality doesn't extend beyond another wife, please meet my mother, who has slowly gotten my father to drop almost every hobby that she doesn't want to take part in because it takes time away from her. That may be more reasonable in your mind than another wife, but the end result is still a selfish woman who can't share her husband. And don't forget that you yourself saw red flags in a man not wanting his wife to continue ballroom dancing - is it only a red flag if it's the man being possessive instead of the woman?

Nor was I implying that everyone has sex together; in my view of polygamy, the sexual dynamic between each wife and the husband would be between them and would still take place privately. I meant that as good as it will be to have private time between the husband and each wife, there will also be time the three of them will want to spend together - they may all enjoy the same movies, the same games, or enjoy eating out together.

[Emiliana]

In short, I think we can say that Bob would be cool with a polygamous relationship, and Portia wouldn't. So if Portia gets married, Bob probably shouldn't try to marry her husband.

Another issue that hasn't been brought up is that of sex drive ... If each of two sister-wives has an approximately equal sex drive, their husband would have to have TWICE the sex drive of either of them to keep them both happy. I don't regularly talk to males about their sex drives, but I doubt there are very many out there with twice my sex drive. (Can I get an amen, Portia?!)

[Talons]

Most of my bright-line dealbreakers are for first dates, and those are pretty standard safety ones -- I won't go out with random homeless guys who ask me out on the street, or creepy guys who use the phrase "remote cave in the mountains" in their description of their ideal first date, or guys who tell me they've been professionally bike-racing in Europe for the past 7 years when actually they've just been released from a 7-year prison term. And so forth. That rules out the majority of the date offers I tend to get.

Maybe you should stop hanging out in Pioneer Park at midnight...

[Katya]

Sure, if you still insist on seeing a polygamous relationship as one that is in inherently unequal. Meanwhile, I'm going to keep thinking of a sister-wife is basically a best friend who is on equal terms with the husband, in a relationship where there is equal love from the husband to each wife, each wife to the husband, each wife to each other, plus with a special dynamic for all three together.

So many women struggle with the idea of "sharing" their husband... what happens when kids come along? When he has a time-consuming job or calling? When he wants to keep having his own social circle or stay on his dance team?

There is a lot of space between having a husband who has no other friendships, no close relationships with other family and no interests outside his marriage, and a husband who has a sexual relationship with one or more other people. The latter might not bother you, and you might consider the relationship with a sister-wife to be equally fulfilling, but it's not incorrect to point out the inequity of the man now having a sexual relationship with more than one person, while each woman still has only one sexual partner.

[Katya]

doesn't want to stay at home

All through my 20s and into my early 30s, I would have assumed that I would quit my job and stay home if I ever got married, but recently I realized that I really enjoy working and I don't want to give that up. So, I guess I'm looking for a stay-at-home dad or a dad who wants to work part time. Also, I'm not changing my name if I get married. (Dealbreakers galore!)

[Zedability]

I agree to some extent with bob. I think it would be really difficult to have a polygamous relationship and there would be tons of challenges, both in and out of the bedroom, but I've always thought that I could be happy in such a relationship if it were born at a time when it was practiced. Obviously I wan't, and I still think I'd like a traditional marriage better just because I have precedent in how to handle it, so I'm not rooting for polygamy to come back by any means, but the idea hasn't bothered me the way it bothers some people. And I think it's okay that it bothers some people. Even at its peak, less than 10% of people practiced polygamy. It was never meant to be for everyone.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

doesn't want to stay at home

All through my 20s and into my early 30s, I would have assumed that I would quit my job and stay home if I ever got married, but recently I realized that I really enjoy working and I don't want to give that up. So, I guess I'm looking for a stay-at-home dad or a dad who wants to work part time. Also, I'm not changing my name if I get married. (Dealbreakers galore!)

Katya, marry me. I'll be a stay at home dad for you.

[Katya]

I agree to some extent with bob. I think it would be really difficult to have a polygamous relationship and there would be tons of challenges, both in and out of the bedroom, but I've always thought that I could be happy in such a relationship if it were born at a time when it was practiced. Obviously I wan't, and I still think I'd like a traditional marriage better just because I have precedent in how to handle it, so I'm not rooting for polygamy to come back by any means, but the idea hasn't bothered me the way it bothers some people. And I think it's okay that it bothers some people. Even at its peak, less than 10% of people practiced polygamy. It was never meant to be for everyone.

It's true that polygyny has been a stable relationship model at different times and in different places, but (1) I'm struggling to think of a culture that has ever practiced polygyny that also valued women as being of equal worth or having equal rights as men and (2) it's a mistake to think that the women who practiced historical Mormon polygyny were all happy in that situation. It may be that it was never meant for everyone and apparently it wasn't even meant for some of the women who ended up in that situation, for whatever reasons.

[Katya]

doesn't want to stay at home

All through my 20s and into my early 30s, I would have assumed that I would quit my job and stay home if I ever got married, but recently I realized that I really enjoy working and I don't want to give that up. So, I guess I'm looking for a stay-at-home dad or a dad who wants to work part time. Also, I'm not changing my name if I get married. (Dealbreakers galore!)

Katya, marry me. I'll be a stay at home dad for you.

Awesome! (It's not a problem that my job is in Utah, right? )

[Zedability]

I agree to some extent with bob. I think it would be really difficult to have a polygamous relationship and there would be tons of challenges, both in and out of the bedroom, but I've always thought that I could be happy in such a relationship if it were born at a time when it was practiced. Obviously I wan't, and I still think I'd like a traditional marriage better just because I have precedent in how to handle it, so I'm not rooting for polygamy to come back by any means, but the idea hasn't bothered me the way it bothers some people. And I think it's okay that it bothers some people. Even at its peak, less than 10% of people practiced polygamy. It was never meant to be for everyone.

It's true that polygyny has been a stable relationship model at different times and in different places, but (1) I'm struggling to think of a culture that has ever practiced polygyny that also valued women as being of equal worth or having equal rights as men and (2) it's a mistake to think that the women who practiced historical Mormon polygyny were all happy in that situation. It may be that it was never meant for everyone and apparently it wasn't even meant for some of the women who ended up in that situation, for whatever reasons.

Absolutely, I don't think everyone was happy. I think some people were though. Again, not for everyone, probably still wouldn't be my favorite thing if I was in it, etc. I'm just not inherently bothered by the idea.

[Katya]

And re polygamy, I should clarify that I don't take issue with women (historically or contemporarily) who think they could be happy in such a situation. But I do take issue with calling people who would prefer a traditional (two-person) marriage "egocentric."

[Marduk]

There's a difference between preferring a monogamous pairing, and claiming that it is inherently flawed in every possible execution, or implying that it is merely designed to allow men to engage in sex with multiple partners.

[bobtheenchantedone]

ETA: fine, Marduk, just post exactly what I'm trying to say while I'm trying to say it.

It's not just that Portia wouldn't choose it for herself, but how she talks about it implies to me that anyone in such a relationship would be looked down on by her. I realize most people are not nearly as okay with the idea of a polygamous relationship as I am, but I am not okay with people thinking that because they would hate it that it's a morally wrong choice. This is why I can't get into FMH. They are clearly panicked by the thought of polygamy and can only see it in men-are-above-women light and so blast it at every opportunity.

In short, I take issue with you if you consider all monogamy moral and all polygamy immoral.

[Katya]

This is why I can't get into FMH. They are clearly panicked by the thought of polygamy and can only see it in men-are-above-women light and so blast it at every opportunity.

I don't see it that way. I think that there is so little recognition in the mainstream church of the hurt, fear, and grief many LDS women feel with regard to (possible future or eternal) polygamy, that all that pain is looking for any release valve possible and FMH happens to be a good outlet. (Also, I'm surprised that a disagreement on this one issue would outweigh everything else that FMH covers. Do you care that much about it or do you not care that much about the other issues FMH tackles?)

[Katya]

Also, the nature of polygamy means that it's really hard to gather data on it. If we had statistics that said that 95% of women in a polygamous relationship were happy or 95% of women in a polygamous relationship were unhappy, it would be easier to argue for or against that sort of relationship. As it is, a lot of the arguments come down to "I know of someone who was happy, and I imagine I would be happy, too" vs. "I know of someone who was unhappy, and I imagine that I would be unhappy, too."