Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I didn't catch the "l" in peeling the first time I read that last post.

Unit of Energy wrote:I didn't catch the "l" in peeling the first time I read that last post.

Neither did I!

Concerning the emotions/dreams discussion, I'd just say that when I first read DL's description in the other thread my thought was "I'm glad I'm not faced with that" not due to anything inherently wrong with it, but the fact that I'm not sure I'm emotionally/mentally mature enough to handle it properly. And vorpal's comment is meritorious, as it shows the other side of the coin. Is it not a double standard to make allowances for emotional outbursts from one party while expecting the other to be instantly rational about the situation? Especially early in the morning, is there no chance that harsh words/actions cut deeper than reactions show? I don't read VB to be disparaging the action, which seems to be natural and entirely out of one's control, just cautioning that some hide their wounds well, and encouraging cognizance that pain unmitigated can be cumulative and effect the relationship further down the line.

tl;dr- just don't assume that all's ok, and go on w/o reciprocating the understanding your significant other shows you.

Dragon Lady wrote:Going back to randomness, I would like to take this moment to say that I actually rather enjoy …peeling? deseeding? pomegranates. It's just fun.

NerdGirl wrote:

Unit of Energy wrote:I didn't catch the "l" in peeling the first time I read that last post.

Neither did I!

Just be glad that nowhere was there a discussion of kidney stones going on....

Tao wrote:Concerning the emotions/dreams discussion, I'd just say that when I first read DL's description in the other thread my thought was "I'm glad I'm not faced with that" not due to anything inherently wrong with it, but the fact that I'm not sure I'm emotionally/mentally mature enough to handle it properly. And vorpal's comment is meritorious, as it shows the other side of the coin. Is it not a double standard to make allowances for emotional outbursts from one party while expecting the other to be instantly rational about the situation? Especially early in the morning, is there no chance that harsh words/actions cut deeper than reactions show? I don't read VB to be disparaging the action, which seems to be natural and entirely out of one's control, just cautioning that some hide their wounds well, and encouraging cognizance that pain unmitigated can be cumulative and effect the relationship further down the line.

tl;dr- just don't assume that all's ok, and go on w/o reciprocating the understanding your significant other shows you.

Sorry, perhaps I worded my response wrong. I tend to get really wordy sometimes, and in all those words don't often express everything I was thinking. I was not trying to say that Vorpal was wrong. In fact, I tried to say at the beginning that it does apply in many instances and it is good to understand that and be aware of how our spouse is actually feeling. But I wanted to also make it clear that that is not always the case.

My relationship with Yellow is very unique in that it is actually built upon honest communication. We talk about hard things. I fully trust that if I offended Yellow in any way, he would tell me. We work very, very hard to make sure the other is happy and to fix what's broken. I'm not saying that other people don't (man, I'm just digging a hole, aren't I?), but that communication is often lacking in relationships. My point is not that everyone should be like us, but rather that I know Yellow and I are an oddity and thus am basing this entire conversation on a perspective unique to myself. (Ugh… that came out horribly and I fear for a backlash that I did not intend… [sigh])

Dragon Lady wrote:My relationship with Yellow is very unique in that it is actually built upon honest communication.

Um, are you saying most relationships AREN'T built on honest communication?! If false, that's a very jaded view. And if true, what a terrible state for the world to be in.

Marduk wrote:

Dragon Lady wrote:My relationship with Yellow is very unique in that it is actually built upon honest communication.

Um, are you saying most relationships AREN'T built on honest communication?! If false, that's a very jaded view. And if true, what a terrible state for the world to be in.

DAH! I told you that I would get backlash that I didn't intend for. I just don't know how to turn my thoughts into English. Ask Yellow, it's one of my biggest struggles in life. Which makes hard conversations even more difficult sometimes.

I think what DL is trying to say is that many relationships are based on superficial communication. Rather actually having meaningful conversations, we try to impress each other.

Today the only foods that sound even remotely appealing to me are maple yogurt and corn.

Unit of Energy wrote:I think what DL is trying to say is that many relationships are based on superficial communication. Rather actually having meaningful conversations, we try to impress each other.

Partially, yes. I've been trying to figure out how to word exactly what I meant. And although I still don't know the best way to say it, that is part of it. I also know that many couples don't talk to each other about what should be talked about. In many instances I've been the recipient of someone ranting about their spouse, telling me the things (s)he does that bugs them. They do it just because they need to get it out of their system, but I don't think it's wise, nor helpful. Those are the sort of things that should be discussed with the spouse. I'm of the opinion that a person should never speak ill of his/her spouse to someone outside of the marriage. Anything that bothers you that much should be fixed inside of the marriage, not out. That just leads to all sorts of trouble.

And I'm not saying that most communication in marriages are superficial or not forthright. I know of many that are very honest in all aspects. So please don't misunderstand me. But I do know that my relationship with Yellow is a bit of an oddity in how we handle communication and has been since we were dating. If you go back and read relationship questions from when we were both writing and after we started dating, you'll see that we pushed consistently for there to be more communication in relationships. And I think our relationship is much stronger than it could have been because we were completely open and honest from the very, very beginning.

NerdGirl wrote:Today the only foods that sound even remotely appealing to me are maple yogurt and corn.

Hopefully separately, not together.

Just pointing out, I was being fishy sauce with that last comment. I couldn't let your fear of backlash stand unfulfilled!

Tao, let's see if we can draw this out a little more... Benefits of relationship status:

Indicator of interest. In the dating world, your willingness to make commitments to another person is a direct indicator of how much you like them. When we define the relationship, let's read between the lines and look at what we're really saying:

• • "I want to date you, but I also want to date other people" = I guess you're pretty cool, but I'm expecting someone better to come along.
    "I want to date you exclusively" = You're really cool, and I'm not expecting anyone better to come along (at least not in the near future). I hope you feel the same way.
    "I love you" = I think you're amazing, and you've become a very important part of my life. I'm starting to think about permanent commitments.
    "Will you marry me?" = I care about you so much that I want to build the rest of my life around you.

If we stray from this pattern, we may be misleading others about our feelings for them. Bottom line: if you don't show interest in any sort of commitment, the girl in question is probably going to believe that you don't like her. Or that you must not like her very much. Then, she's probably going to leave because she wants a boy who likes her more openly. At least, that's how it was for me. I nearly gave up on my husband when we first started dating. He kept asking me out, he kept doing nice things for me, and he kept giving me gifts...but despite all of that, it was hard to believe that he actually liked me because he was so hesitant to make it official, so to speak. And it drove me CRAZY because I really, really wanted to date him. I got so frustrated that I nearly wrote him off altogether. This is why lopsided relationships are generally bad. They cause a great deal of frustration when one person isn't giving what the other person wants.

Security. "I want to date you exclusively" tells us that the happy days will continue until further notice. This is comforting to us.

Increased expectations. If we're dating, I expect that neither of us will date other people. I expect that we will go on dates together every weekend. I expect that we will also see each other regularly throughout the rest of the week, perhaps even daily. I expect that you will do particularly nice things for me on special occasions like birthdays and holidays. I expect more physical affection than previously. I expect you to always help me when I ask you for help. I expect to be listed as your girlfriend on Facebook

...Did that help at all?

You also asked about controlling how much you invest in a relationship. Generally, I would say time is the big factor. If I spend a lot of time with someone I like, I will probably come to like them more and more. But if I stop spending time with them, my interest will probably dwindle as they slip out of my life. The vivid memories start to fade and they become less vivid over time. I may also decide to invest my time in a different relationship because I believe it will yield a more likely prospect. Those new memories will become the most vivid ones, and I'm less likely to even think about the previous relationship. Most people don't like to get "too invested" (emotionally) in unlikely relationships because they know it will just make it harder to move on.

Another factor relevant to this discussion, that cheesy's facebook comment made me think of: we don't only define our relationships for the two people involved, we do it for those around us as well. When jubilant things happen in our lives, it is natural that we want to share these things (what's the old phrase? Joy shared is joy multiplied?) with others. That's part of what "makes us happy." However, it is very problematic when we try to define our relationships to others, and we aren't sure what they are ourselves. "Hey, (random old friend)! I'd like you to meet my boyfriend." (Boyfriend?! I thought we were just dating?)

It also tells others how to behave. If you are in a relationship, you are off-limits to all potential suitors.

Tao wrote:

Katya wrote: Generally, I'd say that others need to know how much to invest in the relationship, and the phrases that describe relationship levels are just shorthand for those expectations.

Another point I'm not sure I understand fully. How do you control what you invest into a relationship? Fiscally, that could make sense, but seems trivial. Emotionally, it seems unlikely, (as our co-thread seems to reinforce) emotions don't seem to me to be something that you can fine-tune to that degree. They seem to dynamic and independent to say 12% of my heart for this stage, 30% for the next and 75% for the one after.

I'd say that emotional investment has a lot too do with controlling your thoughts. If I have a crush on someone or am in love with them, I'm likely to spend a fair amount of time daydreaming about them or imagining what our shared life might be like. That type of behavior is inappropriate if the other person is somehow "off limits" because of their relationship status. (Or, even if the guy is available, I may be setting myself up for heartbreak if he hasn't shown any interest in me.) Also, if you look into the definition of an "emotional affair," those are the kind of behaviors that may or may not be appropriate, depending on the relationship status.

thebigcheese wrote:Tao, let's see if we can draw this out a little more... Benefits of relationship status:...

Very interesting, thank you. A couple of questions, if I may:

thebigcheese wrote:Indicator of interest. In the dating world, your willingness to make commitments to another person is a direct indicator of how much you like them. When we define the relationship, let's read between the lines and look at what we're really saying:

• "I want to date you, but I also want to date other people" = I guess you're pretty cool, but I'm expecting someone better to come along.
  "I want to date you exclusively" = You're really cool, and I'm not expecting anyone better to come along (at least not in the near future). I hope you feel the same way.
  "I love you" = I think you're amazing, and you've become a very important part of my life. I'm starting to think about permanent commitments.
  "Will you marry me?" = I care about you so much that I want to build the rest of my life around you.

Are these stages indicative of internal decisions, or more outward manifestations of internal feelings made prior?

thebigcheese wrote: I nearly gave up on my husband when we first started dating. He kept asking me out, he kept doing nice things for me, and he kept giving me gifts...but despite all of that, it was hard to believe that he actually liked me because he was so hesitant to make it official, so to speak. And it drove me CRAZY because I really, really wanted to date him.

I struggle wrapping my head around this, but it is likely fallout from other confusion, no fault of yours.

thebigcheese wrote:Security. "I want to date you exclusively" tells us that the happy days will continue until further notice. This is comforting to us.

At this point is your happiness predicated wholly upon that particular individual? That to me indicates interest much more akin to marriage than dating exclusively. If not, wouldn't a double date with roommates or some other diversion be better than missing out and staying home alone if your main interest is otherwise occupied? It seems to me that hanging all your happiness on one individual is setting yourself up for heartbreak every time save one. I can't imagine any relationship under those circumstances ending in any way other than marriage or a very painful time.

thebigcheese wrote:Increased expectations. If we're dating, I expect that neither of us will date other people. I expect that we will go on dates together every weekend. I expect that we will also see each other regularly throughout the rest of the week, perhaps even daily. I expect that you will do particularly nice things for me on special occasions like birthdays and holidays. I expect more physical affection than previously. I expect you to always help me when I ask you for help. I expect to be listed as your girlfriend on Facebook

From point 1, I take you to mean dating exclusively here. Does this imply that these expectations are not necessarily in place earlier in the relationship? (I'm looking mainly at 4 and 6 there)

I agree with you to a large extent on the issue of time being a major factor in relationships, but was a little surprised at the final line. From what I gathered from the rest of your post, am I safe in assuming that you are aware of how hard it will be to move on prior to involving yourself in a relationship? And yet do your actions not seem to exacerbate this trend, instead of alleviate it?

thebigcheese wrote:It also tells others how to behave. If you are in a relationship, you are off-limits to all potential suitors.

heh, in the eyes of some, perhaps. I've know those who were of the opinion that if someone isn't married, they are fair candidates to woo. Up to and including engagement, which I'm not so sure how I feel about. On the one hand, it seems cruel, on the other, they likely made a better couple than the first engagement, so who am I to judge?

Dragon Lady wrote:Going back to randomness, I would like to take this moment to say that I actually rather enjoy …peeling? deseeding? pomegranates. It's just fun.

I love de-seeding tomatoes.

Katya wrote:I'd say that emotional investment has a lot too do with controlling your thoughts. If I have a crush on someone or am in love with them, I'm likely to spend a fair amount of time daydreaming about them or imagining what our shared life might be like. That type of behavior is inappropriate if the other person is somehow "off limits" because of their relationship status. (Or, even if the guy is available, I may be setting myself up for heartbreak if he hasn't shown any interest in me.) Also, if you look into the definition of an "emotional affair," those are the kind of behaviors that may or may not be appropriate, depending on the relationship status.

I think I can see where you're coming from here. But considering your thoughts that tend entirely toward the other's betterment, does their relationship status or interest make any significant impact?

Tao wrote:

Katya wrote:I'd say that emotional investment has a lot too do with controlling your thoughts. If I have a crush on someone or am in love with them, I'm likely to spend a fair amount of time daydreaming about them or imagining what our shared life might be like. That type of behavior is inappropriate if the other person is somehow "off limits" because of their relationship status. (Or, even if the guy is available, I may be setting myself up for heartbreak if he hasn't shown any interest in me.) Also, if you look into the definition of an "emotional affair," those are the kind of behaviors that may or may not be appropriate, depending on the relationship status.

I think I can see where you're coming from here. But considering your thoughts that tend entirely toward the other's betterment, does their relationship status or interest make any significant impact?

Mmm, I'd consider it a matter of concern if I spent a significant amount of time thinking about, say, an unavailable coworker. Even if the thoughts were "tending entirely toward their betterment"—I shouldn't be obsessing over someone like that.