let's talk about sex

[vorpal blade]

This question was discussed in the topic "Mission Guilt" where no fewer than 7 people on this board thought that the threat of commiting suicide made the sex nonconsensual and therefore sexual assault, or rape. The "victim" should therefore feel no guilt for having sex, because it was not voluntary. I was the only one who suggested that it might be just manipulative and that she should have known better, or should have said something like you did, and be accountable for her choices.

IT'S. STILL. RAPE.

There, Black Sheep, I said it for you.

That's your opinion. It isn't the law, however.

[Portia]

Ok, that word got lost in the pages of assumptions flung at me so I missed it *apologies*, and that is in fact a game changer. One of my longest standing personal rules about sex is “no alcohol the first time” because it does indeed encourage bad decisions.

Read carefully, I guess?

I think it's a good rule. And again, I assume nothing. :) (Although I think arguably you've made assumptions about me. It just doesn't bother me.)

I'm sorry that your friend had a protracted legal battle, but at the same time, I tend to side with the victim in such cases. It was you who said

I'd like to suggest that about 98% (estimated) of all ‘sexual trauma’ (excluding rape… actual rape, not “I couldn’t say no” rape) comes from the social stigma that comes with sex.

And I think that's bollocks.

[Portia]

Beyond that I suggest that the inability or unwillingness to say no to rape is just willful ignorance.

I feel like this is just an "enlightened" version of the "cover up, ladiez" arguments the conservatives are making.

No one should have to say "no" to rape. Rape shouldn't happen, it's a crime ... and I don't think it's limited to physical force or extreme threats, either.

That's like telling someone to "just say no" to getting their wallet or cell phone stolen. Sure, use common sense. But no one wants to have their wallet stolen, and no one wants to be raped.

Until and unless you're a woman, I'd maybe advise you to tread lightly when it comes to our psychological situation in heterosexual relationships. I just don't think you can actually understand what it's like.

[The Black Ram]

Point being, if you feel it is "rape" (are unwilling) and aren't even willing to say "no", you have a problem. *

Much like a mugger asking you for your wallet or cell phone with no threat of force, then it’s called “begging” and while it is frowned upon it isn’t illegal (most places) and is still a choice.

I’m not a woman, but I’ve made actual hard choices in my life and the fact that you’re unwilling to do so based on the fact that you’re a woman completely undermines any attempt at gender equality.

*Rape law varies from state to state, however a common thread is that “Consent need not be expressed, and may be implied from the context and from the relationship of the parties”, which does leave a certain grey area given interpretation of context and implied consent. In the earlier case with my friend you referred (I believe?) to the woman as the “victim” in the case despite her verbal affirmation that she wanted sex. I believe firmly that my friend was the “victim” of a legalized assault because the woman in question was unwilling to be accountable for her decision.

[Portia]

Point being, if you feel it is "rape" and aren't even willing to say "no", you have a problem.

Much like a mugger asking you for your wallet or cell phone with no threat of force, then it’s called “begging” and while it is frowned upon it isn’t illegal (most places) and is still a choice.

I’m not a woman, but I’ve made actual hard choices in my life and the fact that you’re unwilling to do so based on the fact that you’re a woman completely undermines any attempt at gender equality.

I think it's probably best if I beg off this discussion, as I have neither the time nor the desire for therapy, mmkay?

I just can't even ... the inability to say no is pretty much one of the hallmarks of a sexual assault. So, yeah. Other people can take the torch on that point from here, though.

[Portia]

One last thing:

me: an absence of yes means? ...
boyfriend: in washington it means no

This is true! I was impressed he knew that. So the date-rape line actually does legally differ depending on your state, Black Ram.

Anyway, peace out.

[The Black Ram]

Inability to say no, not unwilling, HUGE difference, which is why I put the "I couldn't say no" in quotes, perhaps this was ill defined. Point being “Yes” or “No” clearly defines the line between consent and rape, the lack there of (depending on state) allows for contextual interpretation. For my personal view if you just kinda “let things happen” and are then unhappy with the result, you are culpable. This is not the law however it is circumstantially interpretable.

[vorpal blade]

Vorpal: How about telling her that you just might commit suicide if she doesn't have sex with you? Is that sexual assault or nearly rape?

Me: I had a girl tell me that if I broke up with her she’d commit suicide, I told her to go outside first.

I don’t advocate manipulation in any form I do however expect people to be strong enough in their convictions to be able to be accountable for their choices. Or is this not how it works? Are you denied access to heaven because the church “Pressured” you into being good?

To those of you who believe the young woman in "Mission Guilt" was raped, because the guy threatened to commit suicide, what about The Black Ram? Was he raped, or would he have been raped if he had given in to her threats to kill herself? As soon as she threatened to commit suicide did he have an obligation to report her to the police for attempted rape? If not, what is the difference?

[Imogen]

Vorpal: How about telling her that you just might commit suicide if she doesn't have sex with you? Is that sexual assault or nearly rape?

Me: I had a girl tell me that if I broke up with her she’d commit suicide, I told her to go outside first.

I don’t advocate manipulation in any form I do however expect people to be strong enough in their convictions to be able to be accountable for their choices. Or is this not how it works? Are you denied access to heaven because the church “Pressured” you into being good?

To those of you who believe the young woman in "Mission Guilt" was raped, because the guy threatened to commit suicide, what about The Black Ram? Was he raped, or would he have been raped if he had given in to her threats to kill herself? As soon as she threatened to commit suicide did he have an obligation to report her to the police for attempted rape? If not, what is the difference?

If you'd read, he's talking about a break-up, not sex. She certainly attempted to emotionally abuse him, and it's great that he was able to not fall victim to that. Not all of us are that mentally or emotionally strong. But, yes, emotionally and mentally abusing someone into having sex with you IS RAPE, and should be reported as such, whether you're a man or woman. The problems come in because we live in a society that assumes only men commit sexual crimes They commit them at MUCH higher rates, but they can be victims as well. Of course, female victims often don't get taken seriously, so it's even harder for a man.

[The Black Ram]

Imogen, you’re right I was talking about breaking up but I believe the parallels fit. Furthermore, I think we see these things from drastically different points of view. Is this situation manipulative? Absolutely. Are there a litany of horrible words that can be used to describe such behaviors? Yes. Is it “Rape”? This is where we need to be very clear about where we draw the lines of personal accountability and coercion. These lines probably have a lot to do with culture, how we were raised, and what we expect individuals to be able to handle. For MY beliefs, our words and actions are the final measure of who we are and there are no mitigating circumstances, only truth. Is it fair to say in this situation that you gave your hymen to save a life? That’s not for me to decide, but it sounds like that was the intent. If this is indeed the case, and the man is truly depressed enough to commit suicide if not for your saving graces (measured by your perception) Is this not a noble sacrifice? Are these not the same wounds as a firefighter or police officer injured in the line of duty (or bystander acting in the same capacity)? As manipulative as the other individual may be, if your intentions and actions are pure and acting on the best information you have at the time, who can judge you? However, as a bystander you have no (legal) obligation to rush into a burning building, if you find out that your injuries are sustained rescuing someone that simply wanted to be rescued, even if he set the blaze himself, this is no shame on you. I would also hope that most people would point out a fire exit, extinguisher, or open window (suitable alternative) before rushing in. Granted, this is a poor metaphor and I’ll hope you forgive me for that. As to the legalities of is this “Rape” I suggest you would have a hard time proving it, how do I feel about the perpetrator… I feel my words “go outside first” sum it up pretty well.

[vorpal blade]

Imogen,

I would like to explain myself a little more fully. I think rape is a terrible crime. I remember when it was a capital offense, and I still think it ought to be. I think we need to be actively involved in decreasing rape and increasing the reporting of it. I know that a number of victims are afraid to report it, or they are afraid they won't be believed, and I think that is tragic. It is difficult to combat crime if the victims do not come forward. I also know that some victims are unsure of whether what happened was a rape or not. They need to be told that unless they clearly give their informed consent they have been raped.

The problem is that there is a grey area. It is not completely black and white. Some advocates of rape reform would like to see as the legal standard that a person must give enthusiastic consent to the sexual relations or else it is rape. As I see it people are spread over a broad range of attitudes towards sexual relations. On the one end there are those who enthusiastically participate in it, and at the other end there are those who would rather die than have sexual relations outside of marriage. In the middle there are many men and women who are undecided, or put conditions on it like truly being in love, or under the "right" conditions.

What keeps a person who is in the middle, where most of us are, from giving in to the temptations or pressures to have sex that come up? I think that in some cases it is fear--fear of getting a disease, fear of losing a reputation, fear of offending religious principles. Sometimes people give in to their temptations because of fear--the fear of being ridiculed, the fear of being alone, the fear of hurting someone's feelings, or other fears. But what keeps most of us in check in doing what we believe to be right is a sense of personal responsibility. If we know we have a choice and are accountable, then instead of choosing the easier path, or the more tempting path, we are inhibited and we stop ourselves from violating our principles.

Most of us think that if a person is raped then he or she cannot be blamed in any way. There is no need to take personal responsibility for being raped. You are the victim, and the fault lies with the rapist alone. So the problem is that if you can convince yourself that you are in the process of being raped you can remove from yourself all inhibitions that come from being personally responsible for what happens.

I think that for the majority if you widen the definition of rape too much then all of those in the middle, who are in doubt as to whether or not to have sexual relations, the barriers are down. You have a victim card to play that excuses you from having any responsibility for what happens. Will people in the grey area take advantage of this? I think so. Anyone who needs some kind of an excuse will easily find one. If we say that a person who threatens to commit suicide is sufficient to absolve you from responsibility, then why not the threat of being abandoned emotionally, or the threat of being laughed at, or the threat of being called a prude, or any other fear you might have?

For all those who are deterred by the necessity of taking personal responsibility for their actions you are giving them the indulgence to look for any kind of pressure they may feel under, whether it is caused by the would-be sexual partner or not, and justify their behavior as out of their control. I think a large part of the incivility one encounters on the Internet is due to a lack of a sense of personal responsibility and accountability. We say and do things we would never think of saying face-to-face. Some are no different on the Internet, but many are.

So where do we draw the line? Certainly if a person is presented with a credible threat to his or her life, or the life of a spouse or child, then it is rape. But to take his or her own life, after proving what a manipulative creep they are, is not a sufficient threat in my opinion. It is not that hard to say, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but you must take responsibility for your own life. I am not responsible if you take your life.” A person who would rather have sex than feel responsible for another's suicide has given his or her informed consent, in my opinion. Regardless of the consent the manipulator has done a terrible thing. It sometimes happens that both parties make bad decisions. In these circumstances I do think the victim made a bad choice, but I would not judge the victim.

That's my opinion. I respect your right to a different opinion, and I clearly see where you are coming from.

[The Black Ram]

Vorpal and I approached this from vastly different angles, though I strongly agree.

[TheBlackSheep]

Vorpal, I appreciated how you presented your point of view here, and it was enlightening to me. I found it very reasonable.

[vorpal blade]

Vorpal, I appreciated how you presented your point of view here, and it was enlightening to me. I found it very reasonable.

Thank you, Black Sheep. It is kind of you to say so.

Frankly, one of the problems I have in a discussion is I tend to try to hammer home the things I believe which are different from what others believe. I keep forgetting that people don't automatically know how many things we believe in common. I realize that communication is possible if common beliefs can first be identified, but sometimes I don't practice this. People cannot identify with you if they don't see the common ground, or they think you are only trying to prove them wrong.

[Imogen]

EDIT:


Edited this cause....it's just not worth being upset by people who will refuse to see your view or understand.

LONG HAIR DON'T CARE.

[The Black Ram]

I understand you are upset, and I am sorry about that.

[vorpal blade]

One of the things I liked about Black Ram's response was his obvious caring for the victim. I wish now that I had expressed that feeling better before this. It is a very difficult thing when someone lays on your shoulders the responsibility of whether they will commit suicide or not. In my dealings with suicidal people I have found it extremely hard emotionally. If you care about them at all then your heart just breaks to see them in torment. You cannot help feeling responsible if there is something you can do to relieve their pain and you refuse to do it. I understand how difficult it is to be strong and resist being controlled by such a person. I do not judge the victim. I am also reluctant to put the sick, mentally unstable person who threatens to commit suicide in the exact same class as the violent, murderous rapist who gives his victims no options. I deeply sympathize with the person who chooses to sacrifice their virginity rather than possibly suffer the guilt of leading another person to commit suicide.

I hope that helps.

[Imogen]

NOT HAVING SEX WITH SOMEONE DOESN'T LEAD THEM TO SUICIDE. PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ILLNESS CAN STILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, INCLUDING RAPE, UNLESS THEY HAVE AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS DISORDER.

If I came into your house and said "vorpal if you don't let me kill your wife and children, i'll kill myself" do i get a pass because i have a mental illness? OF COURSE NOT. i am still fully responsible for making you a victim. PERIOD.

[The Black Ram]

Imogen, Vorpal and I agree with you. Where we disagree is whether or not we’d let you kill our family… I for one would say no, in fact I have... but that's a longer story. That is the choice we are talking about.

[Imogen]

Phrases like "...suffer the guilt of leading another person to commit suicide" is not an agreement. It is still victim blaming, however slight. No one "leads" someone to suicide by not having sex with them, and the person who does that sort of thing is a rapist full stop.