Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

...any questions really interest people lately? What was the most interesting thing you learned from the Board in the last week?

I don't remember if this was in the last week (I've been camping and anything before that seems like ages ago) but my dad and I recently discussed NASA budgeting. We were watching something about the moon landings on the NASA channel and I brought up the discussion on whether they should get government funding and the sending humans vs. sending robots.

I was going to make a thread for this, but then I saw this thread, which I think will do just as well.

When I read Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's response to #52885 (I'll call the question "Ward Social"), I couldn't help but be a little bit. . . disgusted by his outlook on it. I thoroughly disagree with his outlook on being social, in general, and am most vehemently against his last paragraph. He says,

So if you insist on pursuing popularity within your ward then I can’t much improve on your suggestion to just spend more time at it, but carefully consider what you want from your social life before you worry too much about superficial popularity in your ward, eh? Do try to make a handful of close friends and do be pleasant to your ward, but don't worry about popularity. Works well enough for me.

Now, first off, I do agree with some of his advice here. Especially where he says "don't worry about popularity." I think that that is probably the soundest advice that he gave in his answer. The rest of the paragraph, and answer, I have some real issues with.

Problem 1: Answer the question. The question is asking for advice on how to become better at holding conversations. The majority of Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's response is a very logic based approach to social life, barely even touching on conversations.

Problem 2: Attitude of popularity. I very much dislike Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's tone with regard to popularity. He makes it sound like "popularity" is a terrible thing, that is only achieved by lying and scheming. I don't know where Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe has been living, but I haven't seen much of that kind of popularity since high school. Maybe I have been lucky but I have found that everywhere that I have lived here at BYU the majority of the ward members have been more than mature enough to realize the idiocy of trying to become popular. In addition to that, everyone I have come across that is popular in those wards have been so because they are nice people who really do get along with most everyone. They are people that are honestly, deeper than surface level small talk, interested in the people around them. In fact, they tend to be selfless and charitable almost to a fault, using large amounts of their free time and energy to help those around them, in one way or another.

Problem 3: Social goals. I agree with Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's response in that I think that it is good to have goals in your life, and social goals are no exception. However, I honestly think that Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's goals, at least as they came across to me in his answer, are not quite what I would call ideal. He gives goals of being agreeable, and maintaining a close circle of friends. Both good goals, but I think that they are looking in the wrong place. I think that a better goal would be to come to care about those around you, and let it go from there.

Now, I am by no means a social expert. In fact, before this calendar year I stunk hard core at pretty much anything to do with social niceties. But I think that I have learned at least one thing. Being outgoing and a "social success," if you will, is all about caring. People can tell when you don't really care about them. They can tell when you are just fulfilling the most basic social graces of saying hello and asking how they are. And doing those things won't accomplish anything. It won't set off any kind of spark, it would make you stick in their memory. But if you can truly come to care about the people around you, then you will become more outgoing. You will become better at holding conversations. It takes a while, as I am still learning, but I think that that is the key. It is the common thread that I have noticed among those "social giants" that I have gotten to know.

This question reminds me of Favorite of the Day.

I thought the Gunning Fog Index question was very interesting -- though I didn't read it very carefully, as it was a bit technical for me.

I also enjoyed reading Dr. Jorgensen's comments on being named after Batman, since he was one of my teachers and ... he never capitalized his emails.

But having been skimming through the posts for the last week or so, I have enjoyed and been interested in most of them. (It's hard for me to remember, since I spend a couple hours a day (at least, it feels like that) going through the archives and getting all mixed up in timelines.)

Oh, and I just asked my mom if she learned anything interesting, since she reads every day as well, and she only remembered my question. Of course. My pseudonym is shot.

/C's answer to that question

And turns out I don't have anything to say in response to being Wardly Social. Thought I did. Both Kirĸe and Fredjikrang have valid points, the end.

I think I understand Kirke's point. Some people make it a point to get to know everyone in the ward, they aren't "popular" in a high school sense, just that everyone knows them. This type of well-known-ness isn't evil per se, but it is a kind of acquaintance for the sake of acquaintanceness, or for understanding politics or gossip (but it could also be used to get to know the needs of the ward and do service).

I tend to agree with Kirke, in that maintaining a close circle of acquaintances will result in a better social position than getting to know people in the ward (who will usually cut off contact with you after leaving the ward). Maybe I demand too much from my friends, but it's rare that I feel like my acquaintances in a ward have a meaningful connection to me after they have left.

Fredjikrang wrote:I was going to make a thread for this, but then I saw this thread, which I think will do just as well.

When I read Ƥ. Ɗ. Kirĸe's response to #52885 (I'll call the question "Ward Social"), I couldn't help but be a little bit. . . disgusted by his outlook on it. I thoroughly disagree with his outlook on being social, in general, and am most vehemently against his last paragraph....

I agree with your outlook Fred; nothing what Invisible said appeared to me to talk of popularity. Something else P.D. Kirke said said is

One of my goals is to be an agreeable acquaintance – I want to know people’s names and make it clear by saying hi, smiling, making smalltalk when it’s socially appropriate, etc. that I care about them

but it seems that is what Invisible is having problems with; being an agreeable acquaintance, getting beyond the Hey, how are, how was your week type thing, which P.D, Kirke didn't answer.

That and how he views holding conversations, from how he described it, it sounded a lot like gaining experience while playing D&D or some other table top game.

You mean I don't gain levels by talking with people? I guess you'll tell me that all those points I gave myself in diplomacy and my in my charisma score is useless too .

It very well could be that kirke has seen a few too many people be nothing but shallow social butterflies akin to those that run rampant in high school (and let's be honest, there's a lot of high school behavior that flows into college).

Now, I'd rather not start a "kirke is wrong for x reason" or a "kirke is right for y reason", but I have no idea if the person who initially asked the question will read this or not, but I can't really control that anyway. It seems like the "problem" is that There, but Invisible needs to reach out in a socially acceptable manner that would introduce him to people in a nonthreatening possible friendship building manner. One thing that some of my roommates and I have done is we would select an apartment or two of people in the ward (normally an apartment of girls since none of us guys really had that much interest in getting to know our fellow ward males) and invite them to our apartment for a Sunday dinner that we would prepare. This was much appreciated by most everyone that we invited and it was an easy and comfortable way to get to know people. If it just so happened that one of us "clicked" with one of the invited (I don't necessarily mean in a dating sense) perfect!

Also, FHE groups are a wonderful way to get to know someone well enough with whom to have actual and meaningful friendships and conversations.

Keep in mind too that everyone will not always be talking to (or being talked to) all the time in public places, and this should not be anyone's goal.

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You speekin dee Chinese?

I know enough chinese to know that mnop's post is irrelevant...

You probably guessed that though.