Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I can't find anything to back this up (okay, the truth is I haven't even looked), but I have this idea in my head that 1. Jesus is the Savior of all of Heavenly Father's creations and 2. when Adam and Even transgressed, all of Heavenly Father's creations Fell—including the other occupied planets and their inhabitants.

Hum. I've read before things that indicate that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all of God's children, but Adam and Eve's actions causing teh fall of all people on all planets I'm not sure I agree with. Do you have quotes or scriptures that imply that, or is it purely your own speculation? I'm curious.

Wisteria wrote:Hum. I've read before things that indicate that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all of God's children, but Adam and Eve's actions causing teh fall of all people on all planets I'm not sure I agree with. Do you have quotes or scriptures that imply that, or is it purely your own speculation? I'm curious.

To my shame, I don't know where my AtGQ are, but in Doctrines of Salvation we find reference to 2Ne. 2:22(19-26) "And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." Later on we get the following quote "I cannot think that the Lord created death in any creature, plant, animal, or even the earth on which we dwell, at the time of creation. Death came through the violation of a law, and it passed upon all things by the judgment of the Almighty,..."

The most direct reference I could readily find was this: "Elder Parley P. Pratt and Persident John Taylor have left us this teaching: "First, man fell from his standing before God, by giving heed to temptation; and this fall affected the whole creation, as well as man, and caused various changes to take place; he was banished from the presence of the Creator, and a veil was drawn between them, and he was driven from the Garden of Eden, to till the earth, which was then cursed for man's sake, and should begin to bring forth thorns and thistles; and in the sweat of his face should earn his bread, and in sorrow eat of it, all the days of his life, and finally return to dust."

Emphasis in original p. 107-113 DoS, Bookcraft 1954, Joseph Fielding Smith.

I can see where this could be applied to the universe as a whole, "all of creation" or just the earth; "all of creation insofar as it concerns Man". Either explanation holds fine with me, to be honest, but the evidence is there for any to interpret as they wish.

Wisteria wrote:Hum. I've read before things that indicate that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all of God's children, but Adam and Eve's actions causing teh fall of all people on all planets I'm not sure I agree with. Do you have quotes or scriptures that imply that, or is it purely your own speculation? I'm curious.

I don't have quotes or scriptures (but Tao made a good post along those lines). I wouldn't call it my own speculation though; I've heard it primarily from other people (all older than myself). If the only thing putting you off is something stated during the endowment ceremony, just consider that that statement needn't be referring to other creations of our Heavenly Father—they could refer to the creations of other gods (we don't really know either way). The idea of Adam being responsible for the Fall of all of Heavenly Father's worlds makes sense to me, but I'm not married to the idea.

I admit, I was thinking about the endowment ceremony but I wasn't sure how to put it without the whole "this is something that people who have been through the temple will understand" bit. The thought of Adam's fall causing the fall of all of God's creation had never occurred to me before. I'm willing to put it on the shelf of "interesting topics that aren't directly relevant to my salvation and have multiple possible explanations."

I always appreciate some healthy doctrinal speculation. It's not as common now in our correlated world as it once was.

My thoughts? Well given my apostate opinion on the Fall (namely that the Fall was not a single binary event of biting into a pear then bam! mortality), it hard for me to discuss on the same level. The Fall (in as much as it is God's children actively choosing to leave His presence and enter into a mortal fallen state) is universal amongst all of God's creations who seek exaltation, but no, I don't think it happened all at once for everyone.

I don't think this was the first world populated by the spirit children of Heavenly Father. If there were worlds before this ("But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power." Moses 1:35), then there must have been a fall on those other worlds, if the principles of the gospel are the same on other worlds as they are here. I believe the plan of redemption is universal, so there would be no point in peopling worlds where they could not be tempted or were not in a fallen state. I hope that makes sense.

When Satan was asked by God what Satan was doing in giving the forbidden fruit to Adam and Eve, Satan told God that Satan was just doing what had been done on other worlds. Satan is a liar, but if this was a lie God didn't point it out.

So, although I am not certain of this, I am pretty sure the Fall of our Adam and Eve applies only to this world.

My personal opinion is along the lines of what vorpal and wisteria said, and I've had that opinion since before I went to the temple. Mostly because of the other worlds that had passed away before Adam and Eve were even here. It makes sense that the Atonement could be universal, but the fall is a bit different because of how it changes the whole world. So I think it happened once for each world, but there's no doctrine behind that. It might not have happened the exact same way on each world (especially if Satan wasn't there), but I don't really know.

I'm assuming by universal you mean eternal. Assuming that is the case, the actual mechanics of the fall could have been different on different worlds; i.e., a similar but less tempting change. This jives with our current understanding. However, I'd just like to point out that in order for Satan to have any "success" in his goals, the fall was also necessary. God desires man to live in happiness, Satan desires that we die in misery. To both ends a fall is intrinsic.

Eeh, also remember that time is about as understood by man as modern string theory is by a 3 year old. We could find that the fall of Adam was causal to mortality across the universe, even planets long since passed on and not have a paradox, though the mind boggles. The problem with limiting the Fall to Earth alone is that we associate the Atonement with the Fall. Would you also posit that Christ, (or another child of God, I guess it would have to be) lived a perfect life, suffered, and died on each world as well?

vorpal blade wrote:When Satan was asked by God what Satan was doing in giving the forbidden fruit to Adam and Eve, Satan told God that Satan was just doing what had been done on other worlds. Satan is a liar, but if this was a lie God didn't point it out.

So, although I am not certain of this, I am pretty sure the Fall of our Adam and Eve applies only to this world.

There are some who would claim that on other worlds the temptation towards impatience was not present (ie. Satan) so any garden state would have had to have its end by Diety offering knowledge freely. Thus the words of the serpent would still be true "what was done on other worlds" but by the wrong entity, at the wrong time, which really is the essence of sin.

bismark wrote:The Fall (in as much as it is God's children actively choosing to leave His presence and enter into a mortal fallen state) is universal amongst all of God's creations who seek exaltation, but no, I don't think it happened all at once for everyone.

Heartily agree. Simultaneity may appear nice on paper, but I'm not sure it would hold up in practice.

The atonement applied before Christ actually completed it, but some of the blessings of it came only after it was fully completed (like resurrection). I think it's similar with the Fall. Although Adam and Eve had to fall from grace to learn to have children themselves and experience opposition, that doesn't mean that the whole universe was waiting with them. Some of the effects of the Fall could be felt elsewhere in the universe before it actually happened. To God, where everything is one eternal now, the "timing" surely didn't matter.

Now here's an interesting question: Does Satan also sit outside of time? Would that provide a basis for his actions? I'm going to have to search for that one.