Romantic chivalry

Post by **Marduk** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:05 am

So this is something I've always wondered about, and I'd like to get some of the opinions of the people here, especially of the female variety. Do you guys appreciate it when guys pay for things, open doors, etc.? Do you feel disenfranchised? What is an appropriate level?

I've always strived in any relationship I've had to discuss it, and try for a level that both of us feel comfortable with. This is, however, not something that can really happen on the first few dates. So what do I do until then? And what level would you girls be comfortable with?

NerdGirl · Post by **NerdGirl** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:23 am

This is one thing that makes me glad I'm not a guy, because honestly, how are you even supposed to know what to do? There are girls who will stand outside the car silently glaring at you until you figure out that they're waiting for you to open the door for them, and then there are girls who will get mad if you hold the door a door open for them, and everything in between. And some girls get really offended if your level of chivalry does not match their expectations.

For me personally, I think that opening doors etc is a very nice gesture. As far as paying for dates, I think a good rule to go by is that if you ask you pay, at least for the first few dates. Then like you said, Marduk, you get the point where you can discuss things like that and do what makes you both comfortable. I think maybe a good way to approach the door holding, stuff carrying, etc is to do it when doing so doesn't seem forced in any way, but don't go out of your way to do it. Like if you're walking with a girl and you're in a position to easily hold open a door for her, then go ahead and do it. But if you would have to do something awkward like suddenly run in front of her to get the door, don't bother. If she's carrying a bunch of heavy bags, offer to help, but don't just say "let me get that for you" and take the bags without asking if she needs help.

I don't see chivalrous gestures as implying that I'm too weak and fragile to open my own door and carry my own bags. I just see them as something that someone does to show me that they care for me and enjoy serving me. I wish that there was a bit more chivalry in the world, but then again where I live people don't even seem to remember that you're supposed to offer your seat on the bus to that old lady pulling the oxygen tank who just got on and is having to stand in the aisle. Maybe I would feel differently if I encountered excessive and awkward chivalry on a regular basis.

Dragon Lady · Post by **Dragon Lady** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:11 am

I think I pretty much agree with everything NerdGirl said.

Damasta · Post by **Damasta** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:47 am

Sister Kimball said, "Never suppress a generous thought." So I always did the chivalrous thing (I'm married now, so I don't have to worry about guessing anymore). If the girl became angry and contentious about it, then she wasn't worth dating. If, however, she politely asked me to stop, I was perfectly willing to do so (for example, unless we're on a date, my wife thinks it's a waste of time to wait for me to get the door for her). So I say: always do the nice thing. If the girl becomes furious or spiteful, you've uncovered some character flaws that would be detrimental to a relationship regardless of her attitudes about chivalry. Other than that, you seem to have a very reasonable attitude about it, i.e. do whatever makes the girl most comfortable (which, ironically, is the spirit of the law of chivalry!).

Gimgimno · Post by **Gimgimno** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:23 pm

Call me old-fashioned, but there's no way in heck that I'd let a girl pay for herself if I asked her out. She can open her own car door, hold the door for me when we get to the restaurant--heck, she can drive if she wants to--but there ain't no way we're leaving that restaurant without me covering the entire bill. And preferably the tip, too.

If it's a matter of independence, that's one thing, but if it's a matter of gender inequality--I just don't understand that. If I were a lady, I would doll myself up just so guys would buy me dinner four nights a week.

Just saying. (and I probably wouldn't, but it would seem like a good idea at first)

TheAnswerIs42 · Post by **TheAnswerIs42** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:27 pm

I don't expect a lot of chivalry in my life, but I will never stop making fun of my husband over one. Before we dated (but after we started flirting a lot) I saw him at the end of the year marching band dinner. Keep in mind that at this point, I was in the "does he really like me?" stage, where I wanted this to go somewhere but wasn't sure where we stood. He offered me a ride home, which I took as a good sign. I was mentally cheering about that up until we got to my house - and he pulled up to in the street and said "bye!" He always defends himself - he gave me a ride home, after all, and we weren't on a date - but basically that gave me a clear "I'm not that into you" sign in my book. To me, if he wanted to date me, walking me to the door would have been a more clear signal. I don't expect that of him now, but at the time, I felt like I was being treated like a guy friend or something.

So - to me, chivalrous stuff is flirting. It is something nice he does if we are on a nice date, just like I do my hair in a special way or make him a nice dinner for an occasion. If it is someone you want to flirt with, then do chivalrous things for her. I have never understood the women that get upset when guys do nice things for them. Sheesh. I agree with what has been said so far, btw.

Post by **Marduk** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:35 pm

That's another good question. I usually don't do the whole "walk the girl to the door" thing, because, well, quite frankly, that just opens up the opportunity for awkward situations, and I'm awkward enough without it, thank you very much. Big faux pas?

xkcd *** · Post by xkcd *** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:37 pm

Gimgimno wrote:Call me old-fashioned, but there's no way in heck that I'd let a girl pay for herself if I asked her out. She can open her own car door, hold the door for me when we get to the restaurant--heck, she can drive if she wants to--but there ain't no way we're leaving that restaurant without me covering the entire bill. And preferably the tip, too.

If it's a matter of independence, that's one thing, but if it's a matter of gender inequality--I just don't understand that. If I were a lady, I would doll myself up just so guys would buy me dinner four nights a week.

Just saying. (and I probably wouldn't, but it would seem like a good idea at first)

hear hear!

men pay, women put out!

... kidding.

but i've had a guy that asked me on a date and then asked for separate checks at the restaurant. it was just bad. i hadn't planned on it, so i didn't bring money.

Gimgimno · Post by **Gimgimno** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:01 pm

xkcd *** wrote:i've had a guy that asked me on a date and then asked for separate checks at the restaurant.

That. Is. Appalling. If ANYTHING, YOU would insist on that when the waiter came around. Holy cripes, I would have drove that kid's car off a cliff if I had been there. But I would have gotten out of the car before it went off the ledge. You know, like, a safety roll right at the last possible moment? So it would have been cool and I would have decimated the kid's car. Yeah.

Katya · Post by **Katya** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:07 pm

Gimgimno wrote:If it's a matter of independence, that's one thing, but if it's a matter of gender inequality--I just don't understand that. If I were a lady, I would doll myself up just so guys would buy me dinner four nights a week.

You must not be an introvert. I'd rather eat Ramen four nights a week than have to spend that much time making small talk.

Gimgimno · Post by **Gimgimno** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:11 pm

Katya wrote:
Gimgimno wrote:If it's a matter of independence, that's one thing, but if it's a matter of gender inequality--I just don't understand that. If I were a lady, I would doll myself up just so guys would buy me dinner four nights a week.
You must not be an introvert. I'd rather eat Ramen four nights a week than have to spend that much time making small talk.

You speak truth. I am a certified ENFJ. I also love food.

Marzipan · Post by **Marzipan** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:07 pm

TheAnswerIs42 wrote:I have never understood the women that get upset when guys do nice things for them.

I've never understood that, either. Although not every chivalrous act is necessarily a romantic or flirtatious gesture, there's nothing wrong with accepting an act of service like having a door opened for you or having someone (in my case) reach something for you off of the top shelf. The guys aren't trying to treat women as weaker or as inferior (generally). They're being kind. Within the context of everyday life, I certainly don't feel offended if a guy opens a door for me, and at the same time I don't feel offended if he doesn't do it, either.

Within the context of dating, I feel that chivalry shows respect for the girl; having doors opened (when not extremely inconvenient for the poor guy) is nice, I think if he's asking he should pay and vice versa, and I like it when he shows up on time (does that count as chivalry? It...should, hah). As long as guys aren't too awkward with their chivalrous endeavors, I don't see how they could go wrong with it.

...I feel like I just said my famous last words or something with that last phrase.

TheBlackSheep · Post by **TheBlackSheep** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:35 pm

Gimgimno wrote:If it's a matter of independence, that's one thing, but if it's a matter of gender inequality--I just don't understand that. If I were a lady, I would doll myself up just so guys would buy me dinner four nights a week.

...Exactly. This is what I want to avoid.

And, I mean, I appreciate people doing nice things for me. The thing is that if they're doing it because I was born with two X chromosomes, it makes me uncomfortable. I'm my own responsible, self sufficient person. I just happen to not have a Y chromosome. I also understand that that's not exactly socially acceptable around here, so I've let people pay for me. My boyfriend is nice by pretending to let me pay for half of what we do. In truth, I do pay just about every other time, but all of those happen to be smaller events.

I just don't think that people should get grumpy when girls feel this way. I also think that guys should be willing to let girls pay if they want to.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:39 pm

Damasta wrote:If the girl became angry and contentious about it, then she wasn't worth dating.

Basically all that needs to be said.

Tao · Post by **Tao** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:24 pm

Thoughts on standing when a woman enters a room/waiting until all present are seated until taking your own seat?

Seems to me that these are some of the less common examples of chivalry still in use, though they seem more commonly seen being mocked in entertainment media than happening in real life.

Commander Keen · Post by **Commander Keen** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:35 pm

I pretty much agree with what's been said by most people. Nerd Girl was spot on, xkcd wisely said that girls should put out when I pay up (kidding! toooootally kidding), girls who get angry about it aren't worth it, and Gimpy's remarks. Though I also agree with Katya that I'd avoid that much awkwardness-riddled small talk altogether unless it was with someone I was already somewhat familiar with. Which is odd, because I'm more extroverted than introverted....

I guess I'm just agreeable today.

One thing that threw me off when I was in my teenage years was that our mom would wait for you to open the door for her - but only sometimes. It was confusing as junk! Especially when she was a good distance in front of you. I'm goin' along, thinkin' all is well, and then we're awkwardly standing outside a door somewhere. I'm thinkin', "Whyyy....are we not going in?" A few awkward seconds later I would realize, "Ohhh, this is one of those moments where she wants me to open the door, huh?" Then came the mini-guilt trip for not being chivalrous combined with frustration and anger for a lack of consistency. Threw me off every time. Buh. But she's a wonderful woman, lest anyone thinks that I'm maligning me mum.

Unit of Energy · Post by **Unit of Energy** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:34 pm

My thoughts on the matter:
The person who asks expects to pay, but I'm more than willing to let the guy pay if he wants to.
If we are on a date, please walk me to my door. If you are just dropping me off from work it would be weird if you walked me to my door.
In either situation I do appreciate having the car door opened for me to get in, but making me stay in the car while you come around to let me out is strange.
I enjoy it when someone offers to carry my bags or books, it means that I have company for at least part of my walk home or to class.
As for standing when a woman enters the room, I'm not really particular and would probably feel awkward. But a man should always offer his seat to a woman if there are none available. Although I often prefer the floor, I appreciate the offer of a chair.

My dad always told me not to date anyone who wouldn't open doors for me, because if he doesn't do that then he probably has other problems too. My dad also would get upset if I was walking too slow and ended up following him when we were on a walk, because he didn't want his daughter thinking or acting like we were inferior to men.

What I think it comes down to is the intentions of the man. I know that I often do somethings that some girls get upset with me for. I'll hold doors open for anyone coming into a building behind me. I offer to help those that I see struggling with bags. If I notice that anyone could use an extra hand I'm there for them, whether they are male or female. But if I'm on a date or other situation where I'm surrounded by men, I do expect to be treated a certain way, although I won't be too upset if they forget.

On a somewhat related note, I have a rule on the order of who sits shotgun. Dates/significant others first, then siblings, then roommates, then girls.

Foreman · Post by **Foreman** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:01 pm

I, too, learned door-opening from our collective mama- when she was randomly in teaching mode, at least. Seems to me it was mostly a going-into-church thing, but you never could tell! But the habit stuck; I, for one, am a car door-opener. But only when my date is getting in the car. Getting out of the car, you get it yourself.

Here's one I learned from my dad, that I'll share with all the ladies here: if a guy does open your car door, make sure is door is unlocked by the time he gets to the other side of the car. (Of course, this is less and less of a problem what with keyless entry, but when you're with poor college kids you never know what kind of jalopy they'll be driving.) In his wise words: "If she doesn't open your door, she'll open your wallet." Girls can also be considerate to their men!

Single women: you are welcome.

Post by **C is for** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:18 pm

I just had to reread the question this is based on (I'm wondering if we should make a new rule that you link to the question you're responding to?) and having done that I realize that I'm pretty much the opposite of the woman that asked it originally.

You see, something about me just screams "damsel in distress". Especially in lab classes (here's lookin' at you, Chem 353), but I guess in general as well. So when I'm on a date, or with a potential romantic interest (especially then, since I'm more likely to be carrying heavy things), if he doesn't at least offer to help, or pay for dinner, or open doors for me, it's a black mark.

Of course, even if I really need the help, desperately want to stop carrying the heavy thing, etc., I'll usually decline the first time. It gives Potential Man* brownie points if he insists, because then it shows that he means it and isn't just asking for form's sake. So I'm probably not helping the cause of modern woman there.

Tao wrote:Thoughts on standing when a woman enters a room/waiting until all present are seated until taking your own seat?

I think that if I noticed, I'd be touched. Probably I'd insist he/they sit down again if it's going to take me a minute or two to sit down, but ... wait a minute. If everyone's waiting until everyone's seated before sitting down, no one would ever take a seat. Anyway, if it's in the spirit of showing respect for me and my sisters, then I like it. If it's just for fun, not so cool.

So, I think my theme is that "I love chivalry. If it's real and not just because it's Done." If only I'd stuck to such a theme.

*Actually, I've thought a bit about this, and the person I know who is most conscientious about asking if I'm sure is a girl.** So I should call it Potential Person again, but that title doesn't have as much ring to it.
**Chivalry doesn't have to just be for gentlemen. But I guess when it's not it's called courtesy.

stargirl · Post by **stargirl** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 pm

Foreman told me this story that he got from his tour guide in England (okay, I know it's now removed times 3, but i just love it):

A man on the tour bus stood up to offer his seat to a lady. She angrily accused him loudly, so the whole bus could hear:
"Are you offering me your seat because I'm a woman?!"

He replied,

"No, I'm offering it to you because I'm a gentleman."

Take that, "feminists"!

Also, I will vouch for my man:

Foreman wrote:I, for one, am a car door-opener.

He gets the door for me every time. Ãœ