Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I'm going to bring this up one more time to blow off steam before I forget it forever.

Dear friends,

If someone you care about has told you that she or he is leaving the church, the correct approach is not to have an honest-to-goodness testimony meeting in her front room complete with tears and closing prayer. FOR THE LOVE. You give him or her no options other than to either take it silently and be all kinds of torn up afterwards or speak up and look like an ungrateful, bitter jerk.

This is not the way things should be done. I know you love me, and I know how important this is to you, but COME ON.

Love,
The Black Sheep

I respect people's right to make decisions about their own life. I'm sorry your well-meaning friends reacted so extremely to your choice. I hope both sides are able to move on and remain friends.

One of my best friends left the church about a year ago and I'm still conflicted about how I should handle it. I'll for sure cross that particular option off my list, though.

That story is still blowing my mind. I'm sorry you had to sit through that. I am still game for hunting down these friends of yours and giving them a good shins-kicking. Let me know either way.

Wow. A closing prayer and everything! Yeah, I have a number of friends and a family member who have left the church. And one of my best friends from my BYU years is not LDS and is not interested in being LDS even after reading the Book of Mormon, talking to many missionaries, etc. And the supposedly helpful things I've seen people do to try to "save" these people never cease to amaze me. One time while I was living with non-LDS BYU friend, someone anonymously sent the missionaries over to convert her (that happened fairly regularly). After she told the missionaries that yes, she had read the Book of Mormon, yes, she had prayed about it, yes, she had listened to countless missionary discussions before, and no, she was not interested in being baptized and was quite happy as a non-denominational Christian, the missionaries said, "Well, can we at least sing some hymns for you?" She said no. It would have been kind of awkward, since they were elders and couldn't come inside, so they were standing in the doorway at the time.

And when my brother first quit going to church, I don't even know how many people in the ward told me that it was up to me to make him come back and that it would be my fault he left if I didn't convince him otherwise. I get that people are trying to be helpful, but I wish they would combine their helpfulness with thoughtfulness.

Having been rather removed from the Church scene for the past year-plus-change, I hear ya, TBS. I think one of the hardest parts of it all is balancing your genuine love for family and friends that still care more than you do. No one seems to have been on a grand campaign to "reactivate" me, but it's still a touchy subject, to say the least.

I agree that such a meeting wouldn't somehow change my mind. Good luck in taking the good from your experiences, and in all your other journeys in life . . . you definitely were an asset to the Board! :)

Ok, Black Sheep, I'll bite. What would be a better response?

You guys are free to make your own choices, clearly...I'm just wondering, what's the deal? With people our age? Why is it that so many of us change what we believe - politically and religiously, mostly - when we hit college? I don't think it's the "effect of education," not at our school.

Well, for me, I learned to think. Instead of going with what my parents thought just because that was what they thought, I decided to learn about things and honestly decide where I stand.

Hooray for causing fights with my parents!

I'm with krebscout. I support and love my friends, and I agree that everyone sooner or later has to come to a crisis of faith and be intellectually honest...

but it still makes me sad when I hear friends say they plan to leave the church. And it's been happening to me a lot lately.



Dear krebscout: remember that thing I told you about? I didn't do it and I don't think I ever will. Just thought you'd like to know.

At our age is when we are finally able to make our own decisions. For some it is because of family pressure, for others this is the first time they have been exposed to anything other than their families. We are no longer dictated by our parent's decisions. I know that once I moved out I was able to do whatever I felt like. And I had to learn what I thought I already knew. I had to decide why I go to church, and my reasons now are quite different than they were freshman year. Or sophmore year. Or even a year ago. In my parent's house I feel like I can talk about anything, except politics or religion. It's not that those topics are taboo, it's just that I have differing opinions on some matters and am not versed enough to make my point clear.

Another issue that often comes up is that our generation is exposed to many sources of information and ideas that we have trouble fitting into our parent's way of living the gospel. Some are doctrinally unacceptable, others are just culturally unacceptable. Either way, being exposed to issues such as gay rights and other controversial topics are typically filtered in our parent's homes, but not in the world of a college student and young professional.

Cognoscente wrote:I'm with krebscout. I support and love my friends, and I agree that everyone sooner or later has to come to a crisis of faith and be intellectually honest...

but it still makes me sad when I hear friends say they plan to leave the church. And it's been happening to me a lot lately.



Dear krebscout: remember that thing I told you about? I didn't do it and I don't think I ever will. Just thought you'd like to know.

Dear Cognoscente: hugs and high-fives all around

Dear Black Sheep (and any others who have gone astray),

I hope this doesn't come off preachy. Cause it shouldn't. Just trying to see if I can help you understand where they might be coming from.

Please keep in mind that your loved ones quite possibly find it more difficult to see you leave the church than it even is for you to make the break. After all, from your perspective, the worst that happens from your decision is that you are met with widespread pity and/or disapproval. Having been one of us, I hope you can still see see it from the perspective of those faithful Mormons who care for you: you're not just leaving an institution we are fond of! Just cause you don't believe it has bearing on your eternal wellbeing, it doesn't mean we're going to act like we don't believe either! Of course, I'm not condoning what your friends did (I'd be uncomfortable doing that, and certainly they should consider your perspective), but I hope that you can see what that act grew out of. It grew out of heartbroken, desperate love and aching concern for your wellbeing. If nothing else, consider it something they may have needed spiritually/psychologically for them to deal with an event that may be equally traumatic to them.

They may very well have suspected it would offend you. Friends who dare to put your wellbeing over their standing in your eyes are true friends indeed. Misguided as it may have been, isn't there something really loving about what they did?

-Sauron

Unit of Energy wrote:At our age is when we are finally able to make our own decisions. For some it is because of family pressure, for others this is the first time they have been exposed to anything other than their families. We are no longer dictated by our parent's decisions. I know that once I moved out I was able to do whatever I felt like. And I had to learn what I thought I already knew. I had to decide why I go to church, and my reasons now are quite different than they were freshman year. Or sophmore year. Or even a year ago. In my parent's house I feel like I can talk about anything, except politics or religion. It's not that those topics are taboo, it's just that I have differing opinions on some matters and am not versed enough to make my point clear.

Another issue that often comes up is that our generation is exposed to many sources of information and ideas that we have trouble fitting into our parent's way of living the gospel. Some are doctrinally unacceptable, others are just culturally unacceptable. Either way, being exposed to issues such as gay rights and other controversial topics are typically filtered in our parent's homes, but not in the world of a college student and young professional.

I agree with a lot of this, and I'm probably just going to echo a lot of what has already been said.

I think the college/young adult years are a time for people to really figure out who they are and who they want to be. After all, it is the time when you're deciding what career you want to pursue for the rest of your life, which requires a healthy understanding of your talents and interests. It is also the time when you're thinking a lot about relationships and what type of personality you want to spend the rest of your life with (if you choose to do so), which also requires a healthy understanding and development of your personality/social skills. College is a time of growing and struggling to find answers. It is a time of decision that often sets the pattern for the rest of your life. Your personal values are becoming more solidified. So naturally, it would follow that you would make some pretty big faith-based decisions as well. This could happen at other times in your life, of course. But when you're exploring all these other aspects of yourself, I think it comes as a natural step.

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:Misguided as it may have been, isn't there something really loving about what they did?

I would like to second this opinion. If it's your family, they are coming to terms with the idea that their eternal family will be incomplete. It may have been awkward, it may have been offensive, and it may have been misguided. But please, just try to think of it as a gesture of love, as that is surely what they meant it to be.

For the record, Sauron, I would typically agree with everything you said, but there's a twist in TBS's particular story that make it fairly reprehensible. I don't think it's worth getting into, but it will suffice to say that it wasn't really her friends that initiated the awkward and uncomfortable parts of the conversation.

I'm sure it's a hard thing to see your friends ending up like that.

But sometimes people need to understand they're doing more harm than good. A while back I was dating a non-LDS girl living in Heber and she told me all about how hard people tried to get their family to join the church and it only succeeded in driving them further and further. It's a bit naive to think that a heartfelt talk regaling the non with experiences they can't relate to will change everything.

Thanks for saying, Sauron, what I have been feeling.

Hi everybody! This was a fun discovery to make when I finished driving to Vegas tonight. I think I'll just try to reply to everyone in order.

Portia wrote:Good luck in taking the good from your experiences, and in all your other journeys in life . . . you definitely were an asset to the Board!

Thank you Portia! Coming from you that means an incredible amount.

Marduk wrote:Ok, Black Sheep, I'll bite. What would be a better response?

I've thought about this a lot since that big day. Since then I've let many, many more people know. The mother I worried so much about telling was so amazingly great about it that I still almost can't believe it. To my knowledge, everybody who knows me now has access to the I-don't-go-to-church-anymore information except for one of my five siblings who happens to be especially churchy and preachy and confrontational and who lives five minutes from my parents. He gets to know as soon as I'm no longer in town visiting with my very assertive, debate-prone inactive boyfriend. Anyway, point is, since that happened, I've had this conversation many, many times and they've all gone differently, and they were all vastly better. If you're ever in my friends' situation, I think you are safe doing a great many things and unless your friend is looking to get upset and offended, it's going to turn out fine. Almost everyone I've told has told me how sad this decision makes them or that they wish I'd go back. I know they love me and as someone who believed everything the Church preached for so long I understand how hard this is for them to watch. I know that they love me, and that was the overwhelming feeling I had. My grandma even suggested that I meet with my bishop and volunteer to help members to see if that helped any of my bad feelings, and you know what, by golly, I made an appointment, though honestly I'm only looking for the helping others part and not the lightbulb-there-are-good-people-here part.

My ideal situation would include someone asking why, only if it was important that they know, and then really listening and definitely not trying to point out flaws as I go, just as I wouldn't try to point out flaws as they go in theirs. I will use 100 words or less unless asked clarifying questions, at which point I am glad to discuss it as much as they do as long as I am comfortable. If they want to tell me how important the Church is to them and that they want me to come back, I absolutely want them to because I know how important it is. I also want them to not go into a very long speech and I want them to respect me. I don't want them to insinuate (as someone did that night) that I must have really sinned or let some bishop offend me or never have had a testimony or done simple things to grow one years ago. If it isn't going to be a very comfortable, genial meeting, I don't want it to happen in my own space, meaning my home. I would like a neutral ground or for the conversation to be via telephone or email. From my point of view, full length pulpit testimonies are hard because there are very few ways to politely and genuinely respond, especially if they include, say, tearful stories about dead parents as a leading story. About the dead parents example, I deal with such things from people at work who I know are doing them specifically to be manipulative, and it makes me want to treat you the same way, even though I may not believe that to be your intention. I do not like to be silenced out of my desire to not make you uncomfortable. I want very badly to be respectful to anyone who wants to have this conversation with me, and I want them to be respectful back. Many of the conversations I've had with people have left me with a warm, loving feeling afterward. That one did not.

Two of my favorite parts of the tough part of the conversation, from people who didn't let it slide by completely or go really soft on me here, cause I don't think you folks would do that, and that's fine:

"All I can tell you is that I have been the very happiest when I have been really living the gospel. Not just, you know, living the gospel, but living the gospel. I want that for you because I love you. I want you to be the happiest you can be." - The only person who talked at my own personal testimony meeting who did not make me inwardly cringe, who was just as trapped as I was, bless him

"Well, I mean, I respect you and your decisions. I want you to do the best for you. But this makes me incredibly sad, and I want you to come back." - A certain Board writer

krebscout wrote:You guys are free to make your own choices, clearly...I'm just wondering, what's the deal? With people our age? Why is it that so many of us change what we believe - politically and religiously, mostly - when we hit college? I don't think it's the "effect of education," not at our school.

People our age in general? I think everyone's right, it's just when people really start to make choices. If you're asking each of us, though, it's a very complicated answer which includes but is not limited to me completely missing the part where I was supposed to be a teenager and being crazy and just really having a hard time with Provo.

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:Please keep in mind that your loved ones quite possibly find it more difficult to see you leave the church than it even is for you to make the break. After all, from your perspective, the worst that happens from your decision is that you are met with widespread pity and/or disapproval. Having been one of us, I hope you can still see see it from the perspective of those faithful Mormons who care for you: you're not just leaving an institution we are fond of! Just cause you don't believe it has bearing on your eternal wellbeing, it doesn't mean we're going to act like we don't believe either!

First of all, Gimgimno is right, most of what was really bad about this situation I didn't mention. I just meant to blow of the last of the steam, which I did quite effectively. However, I wanted to respond to what you said, which I appreciated. I hope none of this sounds confrontational; I'm not very good at judging tones in print.

Leaving the Church, for me, has not been in any way easy. It's a complete identity crisis as the Church informs so much of what we think and do. Everything has to be examined. You don't know how to live daily life without all of that. At least I also felt naked, because me and my wacky religious beliefs were so much of my social identity and personality. Just wanted to reconfirm that.

Also, as I think I once discussed in a Board answer, my biggest worry was how much pain I was going to cause family and friends. I'm pretty good at disapproval, really, and my primary fear really was what it was going to do to my family. I agonized over the tears and how they'd feel looking around during temple sessions and there being a hole. I come from a very active family (nuclear and extended), so my absence from Church attendance would be felt keenly. I knew this and I worried about it and I am still incredibly sad that I'm causing it. Just wanted to reconfirm that.

One last thing on this section: people leave the Church for a great many reasons and have a wide range of beliefs and non-beliefs. I don't want to discuss mine in public too much more than I have, but I've met many who have no qualms with the doctrines of the Church.

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:I hope that you can see what that act grew out of. It grew out of heartbroken, desperate love and aching concern for your wellbeing. If nothing else, consider it something they may have needed spiritually/psychologically for them to deal with an event that may be equally traumatic to them.

The whole story of what happened is very long and I shan't tell it but in my case that is only part of what the situation grew of. However, even if it had come complete out of what you describe, and I truly can understand it, having felt it myself for people, it still isn't okay. I do not think it is ever okay, ever, to make someone that uncomfortable over something that they did not do to hurt you, whether it was traumatic for you or not. Nope. Not okay. What they needed? Doesn't matter. I didn't do it to hurt them, so they didn't have the right to do what they did to me, especially since I hurt so badly about it for them anyway. As I've said to Marduk, I'm all about talking through the where's and why's and letting them talk about their side, but something on that scale is never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever okay, least of all cause it doesn't motivate change. That experience was the most traumatic thing I've been through in a long time, and I didn't do anything to hurt anybody beforehand. I didn't deserve it.

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:They may very well have suspected it would offend you. Friends who dare to put your wellbeing over their standing in your eyes are true friends indeed.

They didn't, well except the poor bloke who I quoted above. However, I agree with you that that idea is laudable.

...Okay. I think that's it.

TBS, you sound like a very reasonable person. Thanks for the explanation.