Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

http://theboard.byu.edu/index.php?area=viewall&id=57832

For those of you who don't know (which I'm guessing is either several more or much fewer than I think), I spent a semester in Florida working at Walt Disney World. As part of Disney training, we all had to learn how to serve and sell alcohol. I never had to do any of it, personally, but my friend ended up in a quick service position and was therefore required to occasionally man the drinks, which included beer. It never occurred to me or her that this might be against the HC. So... huh. I'm just thinking about this. The Disney schedulers were unwilling to switch my schedule so I could have Sundays off, simply because I requested it for religious purposes (though I do believe I mentioned that my school wanted me in church as much as possible). I wonder if they would be willing to put a quick service worker in a different position because their school rules say they can't even serve alcohol.

I have a friend who had to pass some sort of test to receive her license to serve alcohol, because her job required it, but she's never had to serve any drinks. Would that also be held against her? I'm wondering if a waiter who merely brings the drinks to the table is also considered as breaking the honor code. Or for that matter, someone who merely works in an establishment that serves drinks.

In any case, I like to think that the honor code office would rarely apply this rule. I know I didn't know about this rule when I was at BYU (but, I didn't read the honor code very closely either ... and usually grew a beard out for the summer).

I do believe that this is spirit of the law type thing, at least in my opinion. I've seen some bottles that looked suspiciously like wine in campus kitchens. And there was a debate a couple years back over the alcohol content of BYU Creamery ice cream.

No, that's ridiculous. I have to disagree with Laser Jock. I know tons of students who work in restaurants where they serve alcohol regularly. It is not against the Honor Code to work at Olive Garden. I think the honor code is meant to apply to us on a personal level. We should abstain from possessing, serving, or consuming in our homes and among our friends. The professional world is a different sphere of influence, and not under our direct control. While we should endeavor to be good members of the church where ever we are, it's up to the individual to decide how they chose to do that. So, you shouldn't work in a strip bar, as that is going to make it very hard to be a good member of the church. You can decide whether you are willing to pour wine in a restaurant. Working straight up as a bartender? I personally would never do that. But, again, up to the individual. You can make a lot of money and maybe that's what you have to do to keep yourself from having staggering school loans or to pay off credit card debt. You have to make that decision for yourself.

While I am no longer a student, I have no moral issues with serving alcohol any more than I do serving coffee. Which, by the way, was ALSO INCLUDED in that list of things we are meant to "abstain from possessing, serving, or consuming." You can't work at McDonalds without having to serve coffee. Or cashier at Smith's without having to sell tobacco. I think there is a certain level of personal discretion in the Honor Code, which may bother some people. But that's what I think.

I agree with everything ahem. said.

I agree with ahem., too. I worked in a restaurant bar before going to BYU, and I never thought I was doing anything wrong. I was just making a living.

Ha, see, I like you guys. This all makes sense now. : )

And I'm pretty sure that the part about not being present where alcohol is being consumed doesn't mean that you have to tell your non-Mormon relatives that they can't have a glass of wine with Christmas dinner.

You let your non-Mormon relatives drink wine at Christmas time? I suppose you plan on letting your children drink Mountain Dew, voted for Barack Obama even though he smokes, and pay only 10% tithing too....

On a more serious note, while I don't presume to look at anyone else's situation, I can say that I would feel comfortable being a server at a mainstream restaurant, but would be completely uncomfortable being a bartender. In my view, there is a stark difference between an establishment that caters to families that also serves alcohol and one that has the sell of alcohol as its primary source of revenue and appeal.

On an (mostly) unrelated note, in one of the wards on my brother's mission, the first counselor of the bishopric happened to be a small business owner.

That small business? A liquor store.

Oh, yay. I'm so glad people don't think I'm insane, since that line in the HC does sound pretty cut and dry, and I completely reinterpreted it.

Marduk wrote:On an (mostly) unrelated note, in one of the wards on my brother's mission, the first counselor of the bishopric happened to be a small business owner.

That small business? A liquor store.

I just wrote a response on how I disagreed with the rationale of saying, "Well Bishop Smith does this so it must be okay," then I realized you said this post was on a mostly unrelated note. Wasted about 5 minutes of my life.

Joseph Smith tried opening a tavern in Nauvoo but his proposal was rejected by the city counsel. Man, between beards and booze, the HCO ought to just kick the entire church out of BYU.

From the 1828 Webster's dictionary:

Webster's 1828 Dictionary wrote:tavern
TAV'ERN, n. [L. taberna; tab, the root of table, a board.]
A house licensed to see liquors in small quantities, to be drank on the spot. In some of the United States, tavern is synonymous with inn or hotel, and denotes a house for the entertainment of travelers, as well as for the sale of liquors, licensed for that purpose.

liquor
LIQ'UOR, n. lik'or [L. liquor.]
A liquid or fluid substance. [See Liquid.] Liquor is a word of general signification, extending to water, milk, blood, say, juice, &c.; but its most common application is to spirituous fluids, whether distilled or fermented, to decoctions, solutions, tinctures.

Also of note is the fact that the word of wisdom was not necessarily widely practiced at that time.

It wasn't a commandment at the time. It was still just advice.

Ok, I won't say something snarky about your responses to my original snarky comment directed at the honor code..

But yes, thanks, I knew that.

ahem. wrote:No, that's ridiculous. I have to disagree with Laser Jock. I know tons of students who work in restaurants where they serve alcohol regularly. It is not against the Honor Code to work at Olive Garden.
[ ... ]
I think there is a certain level of personal discretion in the Honor Code, which may bother some people. But that's what I think.

Wired wrote:On a more serious note, while I don't presume to look at anyone else's situation, I can say that I would feel comfortable being a server at a mainstream restaurant, but would be completely uncomfortable being a bartender. In my view, there is a stark difference between an establishment that caters to families that also serves alcohol and one that has the sell of alcohol as its primary source of revenue and appeal.

ahem., Wired nailed my actual point of view. I didn't get the impression from the question that the friend was just a server at a restaurant that happened to also serve alcohol; rather, I answered as if they were a bartender. Admittedly, that's an inference, but it's how I interpreted the question (and Wired's quote, above, is how I interpret the relevant passage from the Honor Code). I completely agree that some personal discretion is called for.

I also agree with ahem/wired on this one. Restaurants serve alcohol on the side, bars serve alcohol as the main event. There's a clear difference in the purpose of each place. Heck, even stores like Target sell wine and beer when local laws permit it. Is working at Target against the Honor Code?

There are so many situations where alcohol might be served that you'd drive yourself crazy trying to avoid all of them. Just think of them all...hotels, restaurants, banquet halls, theme parks, sporting events, work events, homes of non-member friends, barbecues, swimming pools, family get-togethers, vacation spots/resorts, foreign countries, grocery stores, airlines, etc. This question ever-so-slightly reminded me of the times when my sister came home from work, complaining about how she felt left out when the whole office would go out for happy hour. Sometimes she went (and sat there bored/annoyed), but most of the time she skipped out. I think it's a personal judgment call. Like all things, we're not instructed on all the nitty-gritty details because we know the correct principles and we can govern ourselves.

So, on a slight tangent, would you guys feel it was ok to work as a bartender while not attending BYU?