#61289 - Independence from parents

[Katya]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/61289/

I find myself mystified that all parties involved in this question seem to take as given that complete independence is the ideal.

While I grant that independence is a valid goal, relative to complete dependence, I tend to think of interdependence—or perhaps inter-reliance—as superior to both.

After all, if I can make a better life decision by first consulting with others (including family), why wouldn't I choose to do so? And why wouldn't I want others (again, including family), to feel the same way about me?

Perhaps the issue is that college students are at an age and time in their lives when they are first beginning to strongly asserts independence from their parents, so such independence is highly valued? (Also, I suppose that there are several types of independence at play—being financially dependent is different from being unable to make a decision on one's own.)

[thebigcheese]

Once upon a time, I had a roommate who was 23 and STILL had to ask her parents for permission to participate in certain weekend activities (her parents live in Orem, so I guess she's somewhat accountable?). As roommates, we all thought that was insane. I mean, it's one thing to ask your parents if it's a good idea. It's another thing entirely to have to ask for permission. She almost backed out of a study abroad because she had never been away from her parents before. She was terrified of leaving them! I don't know if things have changed since then, but I do know that she has since moved back in with her parents. That's a situation where I think the dependency went overboard.

So where's the line? I think it's fine to consult your parents on major life decisions--where to go to grad school, which job offer to take, what city to move to, should I marry this person. When you're first starting out, there may be certain things that you haven't learned how to do yet--how do I interview for a job, how do I pay my taxes, how do I cook that awesome dinner you used to make. There are also times when you may need advice/support about life in general--I'm having a really hard time, I don't know if I can handle my job, my kids are driving me crazy. But if you honestly can't handle your everyday life without the guidance of your parents, I think that's where dependency goes too far.

There is also a social aspect to this. Some people spend HUGE amounts of time with their families. For those whose parents live close by (I mean REALLY close, like 10 miles or less), I don't think it's unreasonable to go home once a week. For those who parents are a little farther (Salt Lake, perhaps), I don't think it's unreasonable to drop in about once a month. But there also comes a point where your family time cuts into your social time, and I've seen this happen too. People who are unable to sustain relationships with their friends and roommates because they're ALWAYS spending time with family. I don't think that's healthy. If you're in college, stay at college. You need to learn how to manage yourself physically, spiritually, emotionally...because someday, there may come a day when you have a spouse and kids who are dependent on YOU.

[Dragon Lady]

I'm with Katya on this one. I think the ideal should include families. I don't think 100% independence should be the goal.

[mic0]

I find myself mystified that all parties involved in this question seem to take as given that complete independence is the ideal.

We did? I'm sorry if I gave off that impression, because I absolutely think it is important to consult with one's family about things. Just not all things. There are decisions we have to make for ourselves, obviously, and that includes distancing one's self in certain areas. "Complete independence" just seems a little lonely.

/defensive.

[TheAnswerIs42]

The two families I am part of actually have the opposite ends of the spectrum. My in-laws are a bit too dependant for my taste, and it is because my mother-in-law can't handle the separation. She went into depression cycles for months before every wedding, and continues to talk to most of her kids on a daily basis, no matter how busy anyone is or where they live. But the part that really worried me was the location aspect. Each and every one of her other kids moved to another state at some point, started calling home for hours each day, listened to all of their mother's guilt trips about them being too far away, and then had their husbands switch jobs (in one case going to no job) so they could move back home because they couldn't handle living so far away. I hate watching it, because I would LOVE to move away. Nothing against Utah, I just like variety, and I've lived here a decade so I'm ready for something different. But they all had the chance I wanted and wasted it. (Sorry, I'll stop being bitter now) Anyway, sometimes they all mange just fine, but I think they are often too dependant in that family.

But in my family, we are too separate. Each of us moved away at 18, never to come home again (minus the youngest, who flunked out and continues to mooch at age 27, but I digress). The problem is that they are so detached that most of my brothers don't remember to even call home for Mother's day. I try to coordinate things - emailing them to ask for help with a group gift (so my mom doesn't get just mine), etc, but it rarely makes a dent. We all use the excuse that they are all guys (I don't have any sisters), but really it is just insensitive sometimes. And it hurts my parents.

There has to be a balance here. And I think the bigcheese is right. Parents should be there for consulting, because they have done these things before and can help us. But you should be ABLE to stand on your own two feet as an adult. That's the key to me. You should consult because it is nice to, enjoy time with them because you can, but be ABLE to stand on your own two feet.

Oh, and speaking of the study abroad fear - and that roommate sounds nuts, btw - my cousin actually didn't serve his mission because he got too homesick in the MTC. Now, I know missions are really, really hard, but . . . to actually walk out with the logic that "I can't stand to be away from my mom for this long" is a bit of a bad sign. He is a great guy, but to be honest it is something that is still really tough for him, even now that he is married with two kids.

[Katya]

OK, here's an odd question: Assuming that you go to certain family members for advice, who in your family comes to you for advice? (I.e., is it reciprocal? Is it a big chain with younger family members talking to older family members?)

[Katya]

I find myself mystified that all parties involved in this question seem to take as given that complete independence is the ideal.

We did?

As far as I could tell. Or, at least, the idea didn't seem to be challenged. (Of course, that's how the question was framed, so it makes sense that it would be answered within the same framework.)

[TheAnswerIs42]

My mom and I act like girlfriends now. I ask for advice on parenting, etc, and she bounces ideas off me for Relief Society and has me edit her newsletter articles for her. It works really well for us.

[Dragon Lady]

My mom and I have always been best friends. We ask each other for advice. Though lately it's been me asking typical Mommy advice and she asking for computer advice, which I then just pass on to Yellow. I swear my mom talks more with Yellow than to me these days. Hahaha.

My sister and I often ask each other for advice. Probably because we're both trying to raise kid(s) and figure out what's for dinner.

Brother and I have become very good friends. We grow a garden together. We often invite each other over for dinner. We do game nights quite often. (And it has been determined that Yellow and I are bad for he and his roommate's budget. Because we keep getting really fun games that they then want to buy.) It's gotten to the point that we just ask each other's opinions on most anything. He redecorates his house? He wants to know what I think. I'm making a present for my mom for her birthday? I want his advice on how to do it.

My other two brothers and I don't really do much advising. (Unless it's me telling my one brother who is living in my parents' house while they're on their mission to stop doing unapproved improvements to the house. But that's not asked-for advice.)

I'm the youngest, for what it's worth. The sister and brother I advise with the most are #2 and #3 in ages. (I'm #5.)

[vorpal blade]

As I read the answers the writers were saying that children need to learn to become capable of complete independence, but staying in touch with family and asking for advice and feeling comfort in each other is a desirable condition. To me the words "interdependent" or "inter-reliance" imply an unhealthy immaturity where one cannot function on one's own or cannot deal with life without reliance on another. I think the writers were opposed to this kind of dependence, but do not support complete independence in the sense of never wanting to have anything to do with your parents. So, I agree with the writers.

As a parent I see it as challenging to let go of your children so they can be mature adults. I was glad to see my children go to BYU where they would be forced to make their own decisions. We always try to be available and understanding if they call and ask for support, but we try to teach them to make their own decisions and govern themselves. It is sad that a young man would choose not to go on a mission because he and his parents are so interdependent.

I want my children to know I care about them and I am concerned about them and I will help them when they need advice or just a shoulder to cry on. But I feel it is in their best interest to be able to stand on their own two feet financially, emotionally, and mentally. I welcome them back for three weeks of Christmas holiday, and summer employment if they choose, but someday they will be married and look to their own families. Sad, but a good thing.

I've known young women who cry and complain to their husbands about being away from their families. So the man quits his good job and moves back to Utah so his whiny wife can be with her family. That, I think, is a bad thing.

[Dragon Lady]

Yellow and I like living in Utah because it is so close to family. Someday we may decide to move somewhere else for a job, but neither of us see any problems with us staying in Utah solely because that's where family is. (Also, we really like Utah. It feels like home to us.) We enjoy spending lots of time with them. Does that mean we are too attached to our family?

(That was asked not in an, "Oh no! Maybe we're too attached! Tell me, please!" kind of way, but rather in an, "I think you're wrong and I dare you to contradict me" sort of way. For what it's worth, I do believe that people CAN be too attached to their parents, but I don't think that wanting to live near family means you aren't healthily independent.)

[TheAnswerIs42]

No, I think the problem I had with my in-laws was that they refused to appreciate anything about their situation because they weren't close to family, just like Vorpal said at the end there. I wish my family lived closer to me, and I am grateful to have my husband's family close by. I can't count the number of times that my mom and I have talked about how if only she lived closer, she could help me with __, or if I was closer to her, I could come over and __. But that doesn't become my sole reason for living somewhere. I'm not sure how to define it, but there is an particular attitude to this aspect that really got under my skin. It was just . . . this belief that they could never be happy anywhere else. My mother-in-law often talks about how she wishes everyone would move onto the same street as her, and uses every conversation she has with her far away children to promote that no one in the entire family could ever be happy since one person is not living in the same state as her.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm all for preferring to be close to family, but not being actually unable to enjoy a life when you happen to be away from them is a bit much. Grow where you're planted, yeah?

I think I am also biased because my home ward in Ohio would get a lot of young couples coming through for podiatry school. Some of them did great. But we often saw wives break down into tears (in RS) and talk about how they couldn't bear living there because they had never been out of Utah or been more then 10 minutes away from their family before. It usually took a lot of effort to get those couples to socialize in the ward and eventually grow to like anything about the area. And it always made us sad because . . . we loved our ward, and the area we lived in. The couples that did just fine wanted to move back to Utah too, but they made friends and took the time to appreciate the area while they were there, instead of just moping about it.

[thebigcheese]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with choosing to live near your family (as long as you are living independently!). It really depends on your priorities. Some people go where the jobs are, some people want to live in a specific area of the country, some people want to stay close to their family. When I was growing up, I never had a grandparent/uncle/aunt/cousin within 800 miles of where we lived...so for my family, living far apart is the norm. (Besides, my parents recently moved to Oklahoma, and I don't want to live anywhere near there. Not my style.)

My in-laws currently live in Salt Lake, and while it's nice to be so close, we want to get out of Utah sometime. We don't have anything against Utah. There's just something adventurous about moving to a new place. We haven't decided where we want to go exactly, but there are certainly a lot of interesting options on the table. I'm pretty excited about it.

[Katya]

I think I am also biased because my home ward in Ohio would get a lot of young couples coming through for podiatry school. Some of them did great. But we often saw wives break down into tears (in RS) and talk about how they couldn't bear living there because they had never been out of Utah or been more then 10 minutes away from their family before. It usually took a lot of effort to get those couples to socialize in the ward and eventually grow to like anything about the area. And it always made us sad because . . . we loved our ward, and the area we lived in. The couples that did just fine wanted to move back to Utah too, but they made friends and took the time to appreciate the area while they were there, instead of just moping about it.

One of the complaints I've heard about Utah wards is that so many people who live in Utah have friends or family nearby that they don't bother to make friends in the ward, which can be very isolating for people in the ward who don't have friends or family, nearby. (Or who just want to make a friend in the ward, so that going to church is a better experience.)

[thebigcheese]

Maybe some people just don't like to make friends...

[Katya]

Maybe some people just don't like to make friends...

Heh. Could be. But I think that the geographical differences between wards in areas with a high Mormon population vs. ones without make it harder to make friends in the former and easier in the latter (setting aside the issue of homesickness).

[TheAnswerIs42]

Hmm, you have a point there too, Katya. I remember once I tried to make better friends with the ladies in my ward who have kids the same age as mine, so I tried to make a get-together the night of conference while all our husbands were gone. And every single person I called informed me that they had plans with their sisters and mother. I guess I was totally off base there - they all told me that was the tradition. Not having any sisters or actual family in the area, I was (and am) out of luck there.

I personally go through phases when I really want to make friends, and then phases where I give up and be a homebody.

[Laser Jock]

To me the words "interdependent" or "inter-reliance" imply an unhealthy immaturity where one cannot function on one's own or cannot deal with life without reliance on another. I think the writers were opposed to this kind of dependence, but do not support complete independence in the sense of never wanting to have anything to do with your parents. So, I agree with the writers.

For what it's worth, I've usually heard the bad/unhealthy type of mutual dependence that you describe referred to as "codependence," while being mutually dependent in a good, healthy way is given the label "interdependence." I can't claim that everyone uses the same terminology (clearly you had a different idea of what that word meant), but I thought I'd throw this out there.

[vorpal blade]

Yellow and I like living in Utah because it is so close to family. Someday we may decide to move somewhere else for a job, but neither of us see any problems with us staying in Utah solely because that's where family is. (Also, we really like Utah. It feels like home to us.) We enjoy spending lots of time with them. Does that mean we are too attached to our family?

(That was asked not in an, "Oh no! Maybe we're too attached! Tell me, please!" kind of way, but rather in an, "I think you're wrong and I dare you to contradict me" sort of way. For what it's worth, I do believe that people CAN be too attached to their parents, but I don't think that wanting to live near family means you aren't healthily independent.)

(I think I'm in trouble now.) You know, Dragon Lady, I would never dare to contradict you.

I think TheAnswerIs42 had some good points.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to stay close to your family, and if they live in Utah that is fine. I was born in Utah and I think it is a lovely state. What I was referring to are couples I know where one of them wants to move back to Utah to be near family, and the other doesn't. Usually it is the woman who wants to move back. She usually refuses to see any good in the area where she is living (I've seen this in Virginia, Arizona, and California). She refuses to be happy where she is. She acts depressed all the time, except when visiting her family. She complains all the time to her husband that she is missing out on all the fun that her family is having in her absence. She won't make friends in her new area because she feels this is just a temporary delay in her road to happiness. She takes no interest in her surroundings. She instructs the children that their father is mean not to let them live near her family (okay, I just made that one up, but I've seen the wife undermine their father in the presence of the children because she couldn't get what she wanted.) Her husband has a career and a good job, and doesn't want to move. Finally, however, to make peace in the family the husband gives up his job and moves to Utah to look for work or accept a job he doesn't like.

I think that wanting that much to live near family is unhealthy. It seems to me to be a sick sort of psychological or emotional dependence. If you just CANNOT be happy living away from your family, then you are too dependent on them. I think it is okay to miss them, and wish you could be with them more often. You can long for home, but when you can't function in a healthy way because of this obsession then you have a problem. It is a matter of degree of wanting to live near your parents.

Am I still in trouble, or did I just dig a deeper hole?

[vorpal blade]

To me the words "interdependent" or "inter-reliance" imply an unhealthy immaturity where one cannot function on one's own or cannot deal with life without reliance on another. I think the writers were opposed to this kind of dependence, but do not support complete independence in the sense of never wanting to have anything to do with your parents. So, I agree with the writers.

For what it's worth, I've usually heard the bad/unhealthy type of mutual dependence that you describe referred to as "codependence," while being mutually dependent in a good, healthy way is given the label "interdependence." I can't claim that everyone uses the same terminology (clearly you had a different idea of what that word meant), but I thought I'd throw this out there.

I'm thinking of the MacMillan dictionary definition:

things that are interdependent are related to one another in such a close way that each one needs the others in order to exist

Not just "is happier being with the other," but needs the others in order to exist. If you need your parents in order to exist then, to me, you haven't achieved a healthy level of independence. Little children are obviously going to need some adult in order to exist, but they need to grow out of that stage. A parent that commits suicide because they can't stand to live without their departed child would be another example of interdependence in my mind.

But you are right, people have different connotative understandings of the words, and if you are thinking about being mutually dependent in a good, healthy way then I of course have no objection to it.